What Employers Really Want From Schools | Workplus Ep. 1

In the very first episode of the Workplus podcast, Kathleen O’Hare shares her powerful perspective on how education in Northern Ireland must change to prepare young people for the future of work.

From the need to move beyond outdated exams, to breaking the stigma around vocational careers, to ensuring every young person leaves school digitally confident, Kathleen explains what needs to change and how it can happen. She shares examples from her own leadership, including how schools can build stronger employer links, the impact of real-world work experience, and why leadership must be at the heart of education reform.

This is an episode for anyone who believes in creating real opportunities for the next generation.

⏱ In This Episode:
 • Why schools must adapt to a changing world
 • The importance of creating clear pathways into vocational careers
 • Digital skills as a core part of every child’s education
 • How collaboration between schools, employers, and communities changes lives
 • The role of leadership in building a future-ready education system
 • Insights from the Skills Council on where change is already happening

🎧 Thanks for listening to Workplus, the podcast that brings real jobs into the light.

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Transcript

Kathleen: 0:00

The world changed massively during COVID, but schooling has stayed the same. There was no going back to normal after COVID, but unfortunately because of the nature of school examinations, because of the nature of schools, we went back to what was the previous normal, which doesn't add up in this life. We're not. Just getting them into the world of work. We're trying to bring out well-rounded people who value themselves, who value wellbeing, who are adaptable, who are innovative, who have the ability to change. Our mantra needs to be skills, skills, skills, and I think if we solve this. We could be

Richard: 0:42

welcome to Work plus the podcast that shines a light on the people doing good work across Northern Ireland. I'm your host, Richard Kirk, founder of Work Plus, I've spent years working with employers, schools, colleges, and universities, helping young people and career changers to make better informed career decisions. Each week I sit down with real people doing real jobs to explore how they got there, what they've learned. And why their work matters. If you're a parent, teacher, carer, or just curious about what good work looks like today, you're in the right place. Let's dive in. So, Kathleen, um, given your experience of education here in Northern Ireland and and across the world, what, what have you seen that that's working really well? And, and, and what have you seen that maybe needs to change?

Kathleen: 1:30

I suppose, um, here in Northern Ireland, a lot has changed in the last number of decades. Um, we have a really professional teaching force, uh, right through primary post-primary and fe. Uh, there needs to be some changes in every sector to tie those together. Because there's no clear pathway. There's no clear pathway for students to, to go a vocational route. There's a very clear pathway for them to take an academic route if they're going to university, but there needs to be a much clearer route. Um. That means that FE will have to change in how it sells itself. It also means that schools will need to change and embrace and have parents embrace that vocational area of training, uh, which. Currently they don't currently, uh, skills vocational training are second class and regard the second class. We need to blow that out of the water. We need to change culture here. Yeah. And we need to change that fast if we're going to get a skilled workforce for the future. Mm-hmm.

Richard: 2:40

You've been the, the lead in headmaster and since Cecilia's and Dre, and then Hazelwood Integrated College. Like, what are some of the reasons that you, that you've seen that might lead us to that, to that place where we don't have young people coming through that have the right skills and qualifications?

Kathleen: 2:58

I think the competitive nature of schooling is a, is a key issue. We have a 14 to 19 strategy, which we keep hearing about. Yeah. And by the time it is launched, it probably will be massively out of date.

Richard: 3:11

Mm-hmm.

Kathleen: 3:11

Uh, so we need to make sure that that space works well with people working in collaboration rather than competition. Uh, there has been a trend for the last decade. Making sure that there will be a growth of six forms and a growth of six forms, uh, right across Northern Ireland. I don't think that is necessary the right way for schools to progress. For some schools, yes, but for others not, and a lot of students are going and staying on at sixth form without integrity of offer. Mm-hmm. They're just being given, you know, a course to do. Which doesn't fit their vocational pathway. And I think we don't give young people enough credit, uh, for what they'd like to do in future and their vocational pathway. Mm-hmm. Now that is caused by the budgetary situation on schools. It's also caused by an ignorance, uh, from the point of view of some skills, uh, because they don't have any knowledge of future work skills, uh, future skills that would be necessary. And I don't think any school principal any. Board of Governors wants to offer a curriculum, which is, I did it.

Richard: 4:33

Mm-hmm.

Kathleen: 4:34

But clearly we are, and the world changed massively during COVID, uh, but schooling has stayed the same. Mm-hmm. This has happened through centuries after World Wars. You know, everybody went back to normal. There was no going back to normal after COVID. But unfortunately, because of the nature of school examinations, because of the nature of schools, we went back to what was the previous normal, which doesn't add up in, in this life, uh, today.

Richard: 5:07

Yeah, I remember watching Sir Ken Robinson's TED Talk. You've seen it and he talks a lot about how schools kill creativity and there's a question that he starts his, um, presentation with, which is, what is education for? And if I was the, I'll ask you that question, what would you say education is for? If you.

Kathleen: 5:28

I think really the focus of education has to be to get the very best from people. We're not just getting them into the world of work. We're trying to bring out well-rounded people who value themselves, who value wellbeing, who are adaptable, who are innovative, who have the ability to change.'cause unlike when I come out of school, I knew I was going to do a certain job and I was probably going to do that job with a bit of variation for life. That will no longer be the case. So we have to build people who are adaptable and for to build people to be adaptable. The, the system that is actually educating them and guiding them needs to be, uh, innovative and adaptable as well.

Richard: 6:16

Mm-hmm.

Kathleen: 6:16

And I'm not sure the current examination focused curriculum that we have, uh, where everything is dictated by the end, uh, what gets measured. Gets done, uh, doesn't work for, uh, imbuing students and future workforce with skills. And I think if we're gonna have innovation, then we need a bit more freedom in the curriculum. And there isn't a school that would say no to that. Yeah. Uh, but I think we have been re cultured into a very formal curriculum where certain things have to get done by Halloween. Certain things have to get done by, by, uh. Christmas and so on. So it's almost a race to the finish. Mm-hmm. With no breaks to, to build the really important skills. And some of those, they have difficulty in getting measured. Mm-hmm.

Richard: 7:09

Yeah. Which comes back to your challenge, as you said, of what gets measures gets done. So there's an opportunity to review the curriculum right now here in Northern Ireland. So like what are some of the priorities that you would be looking at if you were in the Department of Education? Thinking about the curriculum, I've already spoken to

Kathleen: 7:25

them for a number of hours on, on my feelings and what needs to change. Looking at it from a skills points console, part of uh, point of view. I know that de are looking at being collaborators with other departments. You can't just change the curriculum by putting it under the umbrella of the Department of Education. They need to work with other departments. Uh, there needs to be a real root and branch change of, um, high green skills, how, um, sustainability is fitting into the curriculum. The big ask would be if any new curriculum is the fact that digital literacy needs to be at the front, uh, right from preschool, uh, to, uh, primary to post, primary to fe to itchy. Um, in days gone past, you would never ha you wouldn't criticize. Uh, um. You would, you would criticize a school that didn't, uh, teach numeracy and literacy. But really the new skill is digital literacy. And almost we could make that a social dividing, uh, barrier if we don't emphasize digital literacy in schools because. This is the way the world is going.

Richard: 8:43

Mm-hmm.

Kathleen: 8:44

Um, sometimes the students are better at these skills and teachers, but we need to upskill all of our teachers and all of our school leaders. Yeah. On the use of digital literacy and ai. This is a tide that we will not turn back. Mm-hmm. So we can either embrace it and try and shape that, uh, but we have to be able to use it well in every single part of the curriculum. When I started teaching, it was a blackboard and chalk. When I left teaching, it was an interactive whiteboard. Uh, now, uh, no school principal, no school, um, teacher or pupil can be without the skills, the critical skills needed to use AI as both an administrative tool. And teaching and learning tool.

Richard: 9:32

Mm-hmm. Yeah. When you were leading, um, both of those schools, so there were certain things that the curriculum said you had had to do, you mentioned about the the need to get people moving towards exams and assessment and all of that. Yet you're challenging that as well to say there has to be something more than that. Are, are there examples of your time at, since Lias or Hazelwood, where you were, you were doing the, the baseline in terms of curriculum, getting people ready for exams, but you were, you were looking beyond, just like you described to me. Now those, you know, those skills that young people need to develop, that they are becoming a citizen, not just someone who's useful in the economy. Can you give us some examples of, of, of how you've done that in the past, within the constraints of having to. Deliver these exam outputs as well.

Kathleen: 10:20

Yeah. I can remember a number of pivotal moments during my 16 years of, of headship of, of both schools. And one of them was to invite, uh, a man, and I hope he doesn't mind being named Garth Heatherington.

Richard: 10:35

Oh, yes, yes. To

Kathleen: 10:35

speak to me about future workforce and, uh. I was head of our learning community at the time mm-hmm. In foil. And we brought him in and he spoke for an hour and a half to us. And I think many of us went back and looked critically at our curriculum. Um, after that, uh, there was another few days where with the MDU in, um, Alvin, uh, which is a multidisciplinary unit where they looked at all of the jobs you could do in health. And we really went back and we had a, a really strong curriculum review. Mm-hmm. So I, I think they always, those days always highlighted for me is a need for people to go out and see what's happening in the community, to see what's happening with current jobs, uh, to see, uh, what industry needs were. Mm-hmm. But I'd say in this. Next six months after those two pivotal moments, uh, we, uh, we changed the curriculum radically, uh, because the, the, the town, the city of dairy at that stage had changed massively. And the fact that, you know, shark factories had closed down, there was a whole level of skills for, for young women in particular, uh, at that time. And they saw no future. So. It was about building people towards other skills and health and education and business. And I'm pleased to see many of those first people to go on to further in higher education, be leaders in this world today. And then I think back of maybe, uh, a pivotal moment at at Haselwood where. I was struck when I went to to North Belfast. Its similarity to where Census Cecilia's was, but also the fact that, um, the, there was poor aspiration, uh, to go to work. Uh, because a lot of the industry, like in the security forces or, um. Or indeed in, uh, heavy industries had actually closed and disappeared. So many people who would've, you know, whose grandfather, who'd great grandfather, had worked in shorts or Har Harland Wolf, that avenue wasn't going to be open to them. Mm-hmm. And that was a very proud avenue for many of the young people to go on to say that, you know, my grandfather's nickname was whatever, because he used to, you know, throw the votes into the, into the, the heavy, heavy, um, ship building.

Richard: 13:12

Mm-hmm.

Kathleen: 13:12

Uh, so we had to build aspiration. And I remember picking a champion. And, uh, should not mind being named because she'd be, she was really used that day, but it was Joanne Stewart. Oh, yes. Yeah. And Joanne came that day and we build the day Hazelwood goes to work because there had been no careers program where people went out of school. Um, so I decided, right, let's get them all out. Joanne that day, you know, launched 20 buses going out from the school and everybody in Hazlewood went to work. For one whole day. Can you imagine a thousand people going to work? And some of them I went with the group who went to the Northern Ireland assembly. Somebody who else went to IFF factory. You know, there was, mm-hmm. There was about 20 people, uh, went to every single place. But Hazelwood went to work. And I would like to see initiatives like that happen right across, uh, Northern Ireland, every single school. Because the stories that came back from that, some of 'em negative Mm, people said, you know, I wouldn't really wanna work there. Uh, but that was a very valid experience. And then from that we launched both work experience and again, then, um, internships. Because I'd had prior experience of internships in Maryland, okay. Uh, where I was challenged by a head teacher. You call it work experience, and that's what you get. We call it internships. We get something more valuable. Mm-hmm. And along with Deloitte here in, in Belfast, we launched, uh, uh, a 10 week program where students would go out every Wednesday afternoon. They would go out to, you know, either Deloitte, uh, some of them went to the NOW group, some of them went to, uh, Dans bank. Mm-hmm. And, uh, they actually solved real problems with the bank, you know, or with the now group, for example, would you buy a sausage roll? If you had to pay more because you were helping people, uh, to be having more inclusive workforce. Yeah, yeah. Uh, how young people could embrace, uh, technology and banking. Mm-hmm. So they were doing real projects and 70% of those young people went on to take a higher level apprenticeship.

Richard: 15:42

Fantastic.

Kathleen: 15:43

So that was really pivotable, but all of this taught me one damning fact about skills. I'm damning myself here, Richard, because I was ahead of careers. Mm-hmm. It taught me never make a teacher your head of careers. Because the teacher goes to school, they leave school, they go to big school, either university or whatever. They come back into school without any real industrial experience. So my experience there led me to the fact that I never, after myself had ahead of careers who was a teacher. Teachers were left to teach. Mm-hmm. Uh, were my careers people were people with. Qualifications in ILM, you know, level four or whatever. Uh, but they had real industrial experience.

Richard: 16:35

Mm-hmm. So they, so they weren't, they were, were they teachers employed by the school?

Kathleen: 16:40

They were managers, career careers managers.

Richard: 16:42

Okay. Careers managers. Yeah. So. Is that, is, does that happen across all schools

Kathleen: 16:47

then?

Richard: 16:48

Did they, do schools do that same thing?

Kathleen: 16:50

I don't think many schools, a lot of schools looked at it and they looked at the, the cost of that. Now the cost of that is easily buried in a big school.

Richard: 16:58

Mm-hmm. But

Kathleen: 16:58

if you look at the head of careers, particularly at Lias, you know, she's award-winning constantly.

Richard: 17:03

Yeah.

Kathleen: 17:03

Uh, Ashlyn Colony is a, is award-winning. Um. Because she really understands careers and there's an impartiality with her. She's not saying, like, I would be saying to my students, well, why don't you take a level politics?'cause I'm teaching it uhhuh, you know, um, to make sure that I had a big class where she was far more impartial and plus she had the time. You know, she hadn't somebody queuing to help her with a UCAS worm who was going in to teach an A level class and didn't really have the time to spend with them.

Richard: 17:34

Mm-hmm.

Kathleen: 17:34

So I think, yes, if I, if I had the par, I would make sure that no school had. A careers teacher, they'd have a careers manager. Mm-hmm. I think that would be an impartial way forward for all schools. Yeah. Because they'd understand the culture of your school, but all and the students, but also they would've time to give to

Richard: 17:58

careers. Mm-hmm. But as you say, it. It's maybe in a sense Lia is, or Hazelwood, the resources are there to do that. How, how do you make that happen for I am a school with a couple of hundred pupils in it.

Kathleen: 18:11

I've always found that there's a will, there's a way. Mm-hmm. And there's, there is a way through collaborative efforts of working together. That you could share that member of staff, some of the

Richard: 18:21

area learning communities or something like that. Yeah. You could have your

Kathleen: 18:23

early learning communities where that could work. Uh, when I started out as a head of careers, there was actually training, um, in careers. Yeah. Uh, and there was a big document launched at that stage by the Department of Education. Now we're talking mid 1990s here. Okay. Nothing has been produced since, and that qualification has disappeared. So you'll have somebody who's head of careers who just has space in their time to go.

Richard: 18:50

So we're 30 years down the line. It's not, there hasn't been an improvement. There's been a decline because the qualification's not there. Like you've done work in other countries, like how do they go about. Careers management, as you might say, within a, within a school. What, what can we learn from other places about helping young people to make the right choices to transition to life beyond school?

Kathleen: 19:11

I think what I've learned most is it would be a lot easier to do this in Northern Ireland, you know, than it would be in the township in South Africa. Mm-hmm. Or in a lala in, in Rio Janeiro. Yeah. Uh, but the will has to be there and, you know, you, you should never let money stand in the way of a good idea. Because there are other ways to do it. Mm-hmm. If you think it's a really good idea to do, it doesn't cost that much to bring somebody in for a number of hours a week to, to actually do this. Um, I suppose one area where I find that they invested hugely in careers was in Australia, you know, Australia. Because of its nature. They're, you know, di different areas that do things differently. And me, Melbourne, I suppose been, uh, a key champion. They decided that they would champion digital skills, uh, right across the, uh, Victorian, uh, schools. And I mean, that was obvious 20 years ago. Um, it was obvious where students were coming to school with their, their iPad Okay. And their daybook. Mm-hmm. There was no books, there was no heavy bags, there was no nothing. Uh, if students were out in the bush, they were able to connect to school without actually being at school, you know? So, you know, we, we have a lot to learn from other countries and I think, I suppose prior to COVID with a lack of finance. And since COVID mm-hmm. Uh, there's been a almost like. Bottling down the hatches here, where people are not opening themselves to actually visit other places. Yeah. Not the finance to do so. Mm-hmm. You know, I remember when I first became principal, you know, there was about four different offers to me to, you know. Could, do you want to do an MBA in international leadership? Do you want to do, you know, professional qualification and headship? Do you want to do this project twinning your school with, with a school in America or Australia? You know, they're not the same opportunities now, but they're still there. Mm-hmm. And I think what I see as schooling is a, a buttoning down of almost you're stuck in your region. We don't even collaborate with a school in, you know. London or, or whatever. Mm-hmm. Like I remember flying my, all my maths department to a school in Bristol one day. The flights were 30 pounds return. Mm-hmm. You know, it was cheaper than getting training here because they were really good at maths, but. I don't see enough of that happening anymore because principals are being asked at the minute to, to fill in a form about how they're doing, and then somebody else comes and they ask 'em to fill in a very similar form. There's a lot of what they're doing, which needs to be filed in that big bin beside them because they're being asked to do too much management and too little leadership. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. But I don't think that's happening just in education. I think that's happening right across. There's a lack of leadership. Mm-hmm. And a lack of emphasis on leadership. Uh, were, you know, what did you do with that 10 pounds that I give you yesterday? Can you fill in four forms for that? You know, and we're seeing that maybe in, in areas, and I, if I transition to what's happening maybe in the Republic of Ireland, in desh schools, uh, there's, there's more trust and the accountability is on the fact of trusted accountability. It's not on filling in endless managerial forms. I think there's somewhat in education and elsewhere, death by management.

Richard: 22:53

That's a huge challenge. But who's setting the beat to all of this? Who do you think, uh, could be changing some of this?

Kathleen: 23:00

There's a great saying that you should not be playing the instruments at the same time as conducting the orchestra. My, my favorite leadership quote, Richard. But, uh, I think, I, I think it's not, we have some really good leadership. I mean, you have been in front of the northern island, uh, assembly committee recently in the Eco on Economy, or was it PAC I'm surer It Economy. Yeah. Economy. Uh, the skills Council have as well. Mm-hmm. And with both of my whole background in other areas of policy as well in in education, I am actually, um. Very pleased to see the, the grasp which our political parties have of what needs to be done. I, I, that's not something, uh. I was used to in previous committees, and I mean that it's unusual for somebody to praise, uh, a political, uh, class, but what needs to happen now is that needs to move out of, out of parties mm-hmm. To a collaborative effort forward. The collaborative effort forward sometimes goes against the current, um, style of government we have. Mm-hmm. And, you know, we were left because of our political past with the type of government we have now, which sometimes stops us going forward together. Mm-hmm. Where people think, okay, I can't support you because you're in a different political party. Yeah. I don't see that happening as much. And I have great, I have great hope for the political, uh, movement and political leadership. I would just like to see that far more assertive.

Richard: 24:46

Mm-hmm.

Kathleen: 24:47

But I think that will come. Yeah. Because in my, in my, in my years of both teaching politics and, and being involved in, in, in policy,

Richard: 24:57

yeah.

Kathleen: 24:57

Um, I can see a growing confidence and I can see it happening. It's maybe not happening as fast as it should be, and I would like to see that pace happening because it's frustrating. People like you, for example, they say when you get to Northern Ireland, uh, economy Committee, oh, this is brilliant Richard, you know what Work Plus is doing is fantastic. We need this replicated right across Northern Ireland. Would then, you know, find a way to do that. They need to find a way to do that.

Richard: 25:28

Mm-hmm.

Kathleen: 25:28

And, but they recognize what's good. So that's one of the first, the, the first ways to go forward is to actually recognize that this is the way forward. Yeah. And I think unlike in the past, I think our politicians have found their voice and they've, they, they're growing confidence. Their, their ability is, is brilliant. Uh, but they just need to go forward and they need to go forward together for the. For the good of us all. Mm-hmm.

Richard: 25:56

Yeah, I agree. And not focus too much on work Plus, but just the reason Work Plus is here is because we had a group of employers that got together. In a competitive environment, but they got together around a table as collaborators. That's how it all started. And I think in that, for me, that speaks to the, the example that they've set and they've also recognized that there are lots of scarce resources out there. There's scarce time, people money. Coordination is probably one of the scarcest resources out there. And, and that, that was very much at the very, very outset was companies saying, we can't solve this problem together. We can't engage well with schools. We can't do work experience well. We can't do apprenticeships well by ourselves. We need to, we need to work in, in, in partnership. Mm-hmm. From all the conversations we've had, you know. You've always struck me as a community builder. You're someone who can see bigger pictures and actually make it happen. How do you get folks working together in a, in a political environment, in a, in a, in a school environment? How do you, how have you done that as a leader, I suppose as a, as a question.

Kathleen: 27:01

I think personally it's a journey I had to go on myself. Um, you know, because you go and you teach in a school and you know, you go on home visits, you find out where your children come from, but you don't really collaborate very well. And I remember the project, uh, which was another Pivotable moment, which I applied for, and my governing body supported me being on at that stage, which was common purpose.

Richard: 27:27

Okay?

Kathleen: 27:28

And common purpose in those days. Brought a lot of civic leaders together. So therefore, you know, I was sitting in a room with people who could make changes. Um, and, you know, the Department of Education were offering me a million pound refurbishment for the school. Uh, to which I was saying, you know, the selective school down the road, got a brand new school, what do you think? We are secondary, you know, and you're sitting with your civic leaders there. Mm-hmm. And you know, you're able to say to them, listen, you know, I'm not gonna take second best, which resulted in a 20 million point school in those days. Mm. But you know, you got to hear their challenges. Uh, I got to work with somebody from the health board. I got to work with senior politicians. I got to work with senior business people with Chamber of commerce, about 20 of us. Well, and I suddenly realized, my goodness, we're all trying to do the same thing. We're all trying to create a better city.

Richard: 28:26

Mm-hmm.

Kathleen: 28:27

We're all trying to create a better Northern Ireland, and many of those people I worked with on common purpose, if I phoned them up today, you know, they would probably say, I don't wanna take your call for a start, but they, they'd end up saying yes because they would understand. And I think too little, we have this. Civic forum. Mm. In many ways. Mm-hmm. But the common purpose, um, route was really, really good for, for us. Yeah. Because we got to know each other's people. We got to know what their challenges were. Yeah. Uh, we got to know what kept them up at night, uh, and we got to solve things together. Yeah. And I would say forums like that were very much behind. Um. At that stage, D'S bid to become, uh, city of Culture. Culture, yeah. Yeah. So, you know, the bid went in for the school. The school got a big hall, which was, could hold 800 because you put the assembly hall in the gym back to back with a, a foldable door and the drama was right up the front. Yeah. You know, hence you had a lot of people went into drama. Some, some very famous to this day. Mm-hmm. So it's the lasting thing of people actually working together. Yeah. And because it's a small city, uh, people were able to work together right. Across communities as well. And I mean, there was some pivotable politicians at that stage, like Mark Durkin. Willie Hay. Mm-hmm. You know, who could really sit down and work together. And then the background, you know, there were people like, um, um, I forgot his name, uh, who did a lot of work in, uh, bringing communities, uh, together Glen Bar. Okay. Glen More. And bringing communities together that previously didn't work together. Yeah. You know, courageous leadership. Mm-hmm. Who would just say, you know, this is the way we should do it. I'm not sure there's a forum to do that. If I had my way, I would make sure that every school was an associate member of a Chamber of Commerce. Mm-hmm. State, and that's, that's what happened in Derry. I've asked for that to happen in Belfast. Yeah. I've asked for that to happen in uri. I've asked other areas to do that, but that hasn't happened yet. And why is that not happening? Mm-hmm. Schools not associate members of Chamber of Commerce. Mm-hmm. You know, they have a lot to contribute and at the minute, like you need every worker that you possibly can get here because mm-hmm. We have so few workers.

Richard: 31:00

Yeah. But again, it's, it's the, the, the time, the scar resources that we've talked about that a school might have, they're being measured on all these things.

Kathleen: 31:08

I think the time, kudos in them coming to a Chamber of Commerce meeting, which not necessarily always during the day.

Richard: 31:15

Yes.

Kathleen: 31:17

There's a certain cred needs that

Richard: 31:18

buy-in. Do the board of Governors have, can they be a driver in some of this? If we get good people around those tables, whether at primary, post primary, who are send to your principal, look. We've got you and we've got your back on this. Have you seen good examples of, of governors?

Kathleen: 31:34

I've seen good examples of that. Maybe not always. I've been, I've been blessed with two really good chairs of Board of Governors who, who got this? Yes. Because I remember, um, my chair of board of governors in, in Belfast in particular saying to me, oh, this is really good for the school that you're part of this. Mm-hmm. You know, and, you know, defending me if I was actually a part of something. So, yeah. You know, they understood this, but that was because that was a professional board of governors. Okay. You know, not all schools have professional boards of governors. Mm-hmm. Uh, and they have to, you know, a lot of governors are giving up their time. Really? Oh, yeah, yeah. Uh, but I think, I don't think there's any school that would say no to this. It just, you know, like head teachers into industry again. Mm-hmm. I think there'll be lots of head teachers jumping at it. Yeah. Yeah. Um, and I mean, that hasn't been in place since the early 1990s. Mm-hmm. So there's lots of things we lost. Yeah. During the nineties, you know, and this century.

Richard: 32:32

Yeah. So we thought quite a bit about education. You're in a role now where you're chairing the skills council and that skills right across the economy for all ages. Is that right? Yeah. Yeah. You talked about working in some areas, say in, you know, in Bogside and Derry and, and, and North Belfast and Hazelwood. As we, as we think about the changing a landscape, and you mentioned digital AI and automation and, and robotics and all those things, you know, are, are you, is there a concern that. That a large, you mentioned about digital literacy, but is there a concern that a large s swat of, of our society are gonna struggle to find their, their place in this, in this new economy? Do you, do you have any nightmares? Do you, do you what, what, what do you think about that?

Kathleen: 33:19

I'd say if anything would keep me awake at nine, it would be that. Because I realized during COVID. Mm-hmm. Uh, because at that time I was involved with, with sia, and then after that, with the skills council, the fact that, you know, lots of, maybe only 70% of students were able to access online work, you know, 30% weren't. Mm-hmm. And those 30% were the 30% who were already disadvantaged. So there would be further disadvantaged. So. With all age groups, uh, very much in mind with the skills council. You know, digital skills is something you have to embrace regardless to what age you are. You know, you can't not use ai. You know, I was blessed for most of my, my years, uh, you know, last three decades at. Work that I had a secretary

Richard: 34:09

mm-hmm.

Kathleen: 34:09

Uh, have no secretary anymore, so could not do without AI as an administrative assistant.

Richard: 34:15

Mm-hmm.

Kathleen: 34:16

You know, and there are many people like me at my age group who are, are the same, who've had to learn and embrace digital skills, but that takes very little. It's, uh, we have a system in the past called the European Computer Driving License. Do you remember that? Yes. I, yes. I thought you weren't old enough, Richard, do you remember? No, I, I definitely

Richard: 34:35

am.

Kathleen: 34:35

Definitely am. Yeah. But you know, we need something the same with ai. Yes. Otherwise, people are using it for, for silly things, you know, or not using it at all. Mm-hmm. But we need something, something similar there. I do worry about how schools will embrace ai and some of the policies coming out in, in, in uk

Richard: 34:56

mm-hmm.

Kathleen: 34:56

Uh, at the minute, are very anti generative AI being used in schools. Okay. But I mean, I have. Know people who are in examination boards who are ready to embrace, uh, digital marketing, AI marketing. Mm-hmm.

Richard: 35:09

Mm-hmm.

Kathleen: 35:10

Um, I know that I, I work for a body now who that is international and if we advertise something maybe with 20 places. Yeah. Uh, the first shortlist is done by ai. Mm-hmm. Because there's no way you could, you know, set and shortlist, you know, maybe a thousand candidates down to, to, to 50. Yeah. Yes, of course. So AI has to do the, the first. So. I think it, I think it's must do. Uh, but I would worry how we ensure that a lot of children aren't left behind in digital literacy. And that just doesn't lie with schools. That lies with the communities as well. Mm-hmm. And if I point to the Department of Justice, for example. The department of the communities, uh, DFE and of course Department of Education as well, uh, that it's all of our responsibility to make sure schools are not left behind.

Richard: 36:01

Mm-hmm.

Kathleen: 36:02

And my past was, uh, with Dr. Noel Purdy from STR Milus, uh, five of us writing. Um. An action policy and an action plan on, uh, looking at underachievement and disadvantaged areas. And part of that was to address digital skills. Now there was 180 million to be put aside for that across, you know, an a decade really. Um. And that was signed up to the, by the whole executive. Uh, but, uh, to date, you know, only a fraction of that has been spent. But they now, with the new raise funding, uh, they are going into particular areas and helping to raise, um, many different skills that would tackle it. Mm-hmm. But unfortunately. A lot of things are piecemeal. We can't afford this one to be piecemeal, so the best way to do it is through, through a school. Mm-hmm. That schools build digital literacy. No, you can't build digital literacy with your students without building it with your staff.

Richard: 37:08

Yeah. Yeah.

Kathleen: 37:09

So all IT policies in school need to change, uh, they need to be digital, you know, skills, policies, uh, focusing on AI as well. And then AI needs to find its way and its part into every single subject, uh, in the school as well. Yeah. And that is part of huge curriculum review. Mm-hmm. Yeah. But I was, you know, I know the, the, the person who's doing the curriculum review at the minute is using AI herself. So that's actually quite, um, heartwarming to see. Yeah. So, and I think if anywhere, if we can crack that, we will bring the jobs. We will bring the jobs to here. Mm-hmm. Because we'll be educated, uh, to do that. And if you look at how the economy is going here, um, if we have a really good educated economy with numeracy literacy and digital literacy skills, uh, we'd have really good jobs, which is the, the ministers, um, uh, wish would not just have jobs. We'll have really good jobs. Yeah.

Richard: 38:11

Yeah, we work with a lot of HR managers and talent leaders and people who are thinking about skills and people and their organizations. And one of the things that has cropped up a lot is the, the, the skills shortage vacancies. So when they have people coming forward for. To apply jobs, but they don't meet the grade, they don't have the right skills, qualifications, or experience. So in your role skills council, you know, if an HR manager or talent acquisition professional's listening to this, like what is the skills council doing to try and, and help in some ways bridge that gap? Our economy needs this, our people on average are this, there's this gap that's being created. What can the Skills Council do to try and bridge that gap for those. Businesses out there?

Kathleen: 38:56

Well, at the minute, one of our subcommittees is actually looking at, um, the skill supply.

Richard: 39:02

Mm-hmm.

Kathleen: 39:03

Uh, another is actually looking at education and skills. Uh, currently that's focusing on level three, which can't focus on everything. Okay. But to see exactly what's there and what's missing three

Richard: 39:13

just is, is that like a Levels BB Tech is that, well, if you look at it a

Kathleen: 39:17

level, it's B Tech as well, and it's, um, anything above. Were GCSE and mm-hmm. Uh, a level two B Tech. Okay. Because they had to start somewhere. Yeah. Their next launch after that would be look elsewhere, uh, because the, that's where we have the shortage of skills at the minute, at level three and level four. So they're looking at where those skills shortages are now, not exactly where those skill shortages are, but we're regionally, we're short. Because there'll be certain people who will say to me, infra, for example, um, we would need this skill, but I would have to go to Belfast in order to acquire this skill. Mm. So we need, we need, you know, we need regions to be more agile in, in focusing on certain skills. And I know that, uh, Southwest Regional College does an awful lot on skills, but clearly if we identify a skills gap, uh, for either sustainable, you know. Environmental, uh, work, then that has to be, um, satisfied both in, in fe and he, he.

Richard: 40:28

Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Kathleen: 40:29

And I, I think the city deals have a place to play here as well in how they're actually building skills. Mm-hmm. It's the agility which we turn to solve a skills issue, uh, where somebody turns up and says, we need 20 whatever, with a bit of planning in. Industry. Mm-hmm. They need to start looking at future skills because you can't suddenly turn people out like a template. Yeah. You know, there, there is a lead in time for training.

Richard: 41:01

Yes.

Kathleen: 41:02

And I know, you know, many of us are looking at the micro credits, you know, in the Republic of Ireland. I don't know if that would work here, but it's worth exploring how we can build skills, but not within a normal school curriculum time or not within a normal FE curriculum time. That will mean that industry will have to go in there and work very much with, um, fe or schools to say, listen, we need X, Y, and Z, but we will help you do that because it is likely that the person who's training you in the school or the education environment will not be up to speed with the latest. Changes in technology and ISO numbers, et cetera. So it needs to be a very collaborative effort because I think skills have become so particular to that. You know, and I suppose one of the recent successes has been the, the, the joint training between FE and the construction industry mm-hmm. On bim. Mm-hmm. Yeah. You know, and that was very successfully completed. Uh, but that needs to be done in other areas as well, but then they, they tend to speak with one voice. Mm-hmm. If you're sitting in an industry somewhere that. Doesn't speak with one voice, you're less liable to get things done. Mm-hmm. Now that's a hint to any industry. If you're sitting and you're fragmented yourselves.

Richard: 42:32

Yeah.

Kathleen: 42:32

And you're not working together, you not get the benefits. Because sometimes we have maybe a number of, uh, bodies that are not in the same industry area, but they're not necessarily working together, so therefore they don't know what. They're joint. Ask us. Mm-hmm.

Richard: 42:51

You have an opportunity to, to make some change happen. Kathleen, you've been in that role for, is it 18 months now? 18 months. So like what's the work plan looking like and are you, are you optimistic?

Kathleen: 43:02

I think I'm getting optimistic. I wasn't probably optimistic at the beginning, but we have a really good skills council and between the. The members on the council, which write 20, uh, coming from three different departments as as well. Uh, and actually all of the subcommittees, uh, they're starting to produce their reports and their action plans. Digital skills was already launched before Christmas. Yeah. Uh, in Springfield, um, and the E three campus. Uh, then we are currently proofing the green skills report. And that will look at green skills and green jobs, okay. Uh, in certain areas. And we are also then on the edge of producing a paper on skills, uh, supply. In Northern Ireland. Mm-hmm. And, you know, those just went back and just proofed some of those, uh, last night. So they're on the offering for this year. And then education and skills as well. I am looking forward to the fact that in front of the PAC skills got a very hard time. As you, as you know. I thought that was useful. That skills got a hard time because sometimes, um, change happens, uh, when things are called out. Yeah. And, uh, department colleagues would say the same, uh, that they, um, were. Happy to see that skills is raising on, on, on the agenda. Um, because of that, uh, the skills council will be reviewed, uh, come February.

Richard: 44:40

Okay.

Kathleen: 44:41

Uh, the permanent secretary spoke about that at the PAC, that the skills council, um. WD pre is the work of the Skills Council. Uh, the skills council needs to review because it is not robust enough, uh, not meeting enough, uh, doesn't have the strong enough teeth yet mm-hmm. To do what it possibly could do because it, it's an independent advisory body which could advise all parts of government on skills, not just, uh, the department for the economy. Mm-hmm. And, uh, that I, I have s. I have high hopes for the review of the Skills council and will be pushing the agenda for that to be, to be reorganized and reinvigorated. Mm-hmm. But I have to, you know, I have to say that the members on the Skills Council, right across every industry has have a huge grip on what's needed for skills. Mm-hmm. And, uh. Their advice is completely impartial, and I think that is to, to their credit. So I look forward to, to working with them. We currently have four, uh, subcommittees. On green skills, digital skills, uh, equality, diversity and inclusion and, um, education and skills. So, uh, I think from that we will look at the new priorities that the minister has set, both in the sub-regional plan and, uh, as well in, you know, any future. Pieces of legislation that come out. But legislation must be backed by action. And action has to be backed by, by more than piecemeal bits of money to solve, uh, the skills issue. Mm-hmm.

Richard: 46:28

Mm-hmm.

Kathleen: 46:28

Um, I mean, you know, I am old enough to remember education, education being education, being Tony Blair's mantra in 1997. Mm-hmm. Our mantra needs to be skills, skills, skills. And I think if we solve this, uh, skills, ask in North if we solve, uh, where we're actually going, uh, in the economy and really skill up our workforce, I think we could be the best. Region and I think we could start to match what is happening and better than the Republic of Ireland. And I think the will is here. So I'm actually looking forward to, to seeing us solve that, but seeing us solve it together because that is our only way forward. And I think. Industry get that. I think business get it and I think, uh, our politicians get it, but we just need that joint action, that joint ask and to put that ask then to the UK government, uh, to maybe get devolved issues which are not, or non devolved issues, uh, as part of our agenda as well, so we can actually have the real part to move forward. Great.

Richard: 47:40

Thank you so much for your time, Kathleen. It's been great to have this conversation with you and, uh, look forward to seeing again soon. Thank you. Look forward to other ones. Thank you. Thank you. Thanks for tuning in to work. Plus, if today's story gave you fresh perspective or helped you rethink what's possible, leave us a review on your favorite podcast platform or hit like and subscribe. It really does make a big difference for more stories, resources. And tools to help guide the next generation visit Work plus.app. Until next time.