From School to Software Engineer: Why Apprenticeships Work | Workplus Ep. 2

In this episode of the Workplus podcast, Gina Lonergan shares her inspiring journey from school student to associate software engineer at Liberty IT through an apprenticeship.

Gina reveals how early work experience, practical learning, and a supportive workplace helped her build a thriving career without university debt. From coding and product design to social impact and leadership, she shows how apprenticeships offer so much more than just a job.

Whether you are a young person, parent, teacher, or employer, this conversation will challenge your thinking about traditional career routes and highlight why apprenticeships could be the best decision you make.

⏱ In This Episode:
• Why real work experience can transform career choices
• How apprenticeships help you earn, learn, and grow at the same time
• Busting the myth: software is not just coding in dark rooms
• Supporting young people to explore tech through STEAM Studio
• How employers can benefit from eager-to-learn apprentices
• Breaking barriers for women in tech and creating inclusive workplaces
• The power of mentorship, flexibility, and workplace wellbeing
• Gina’s advice for young people who are curious about tech careers

🎧 Thanks for listening to Workplus, the podcast that brings real jobs into the light.

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Transcript

Gina: 0:00

I was so eager to learn and I wanted to learn as quickly as I could and get involved in projects as quickly as I could. So I think having that eagerness to learn is why an apprentice is so important. And I think a lot of companies need to kind of recognize that. I was actually diagnosed with Hodgkins Lymphoma in December of my final year, so that was definitely a big decision for me to. Whether I wanted to continue studying or defer for another year, and I kind of took that Christmas to kind of think about it and once I'd realized,

Richard: 0:28

welcome to Work, plus the podcast that shines a light on the people doing good work across Northern Ireland. I'm your host, Richard Kirk, founder of Work Plus, I've spent years working with employers, schools, colleges, and universities, helping young people and career changers to make better informed career decisions. Each week I sit down with real people. Doing real jobs to explore how they got there, what they've learned, and why their work matters. If you're a parent, teacher, carer, or just curious about what good work looks like today, you're in the right place. Let's dive in. Dino, it's great to have you with us today on podcast, and you're working now as a, as a software engineer. How did that all start for you? Like take us back to when you were at school. How did that all start?

Gina: 1:15

I always loved ICT as a subject in school. Um. From when I'd started secondary school, I always, um, was quite keen to get involved in any of the ICT related subjects. So even things from like PowerPoint and Excel and, um, we'd done like basic web design with like creating a, like a small webpage. And I just loved the creativity aspect of those subjects. And then that, that led me on to, um, thinking about computer science as an A level. So going into computer science was definitely quite daunting'cause I didn't know much about programming or anything at the time and I didn't really know anyone who was in the software industry around me. Um, but I thought I'd try it for a few weeks and if I really hated it, I would leave it. But I ended up loving it actually. Um, so I continued on doing that as an A level. And then I suppose from there, um, I wanted to research work experiences as well, just to see whether it was definitely gonna be the right career path for me. So. I researched a load of different work experiences and asked my teachers and stuff, um, which ones were available to me. So I actually done that summer, I'd done three different work experiences. I'd done one with Catalyst, which, which was the Generation Innovation, um, one with PWC as well, which was more data analytics using Power BI and stuff. And then I'd done a third one, which was with a UX company. In Belfast and Yex was like, I hadn't heard of that before either. So going into that was really interesting and learning, learning about like how important user interaction is when it comes to web design and the psychology behind it, I find very interesting as well. And it's still something I'm interested now even.

Richard: 2:51

Yeah, yeah.

Gina: 2:52

Um, yeah. And then from the other work experiences, they were, um, working in teams of other students, so I was working with people who were interested in the same subjects as me, so it was. Nice to kind of get exposure to that as well. And I felt like I developed a lot of skills from those work experiences and they're definitely a key component to why I went into software industry. Yeah. Um, so yeah, so from theres, um, where I got, I started researching into apprenticeships'cause I really liked, from my work experiences, I liked being practical and doing, getting like hands-on experience. Yeah. So that, yeah, that led me down the apprenticeship path and I done some research into them. Um, applied for as many as I could, got the, that experience with the applications and the interviews. So I, um, I looked into it and the application process was very easy and everything, so I thought I'll just give it a go. And then I ended up, um, getting through the, to the interview process with Liberty. It. And then, yeah, that's where it all started, really. Yeah. Good. Brilliant.

Richard: 3:50

Brilliant. So like when we think of, uh, software engineering, it, sometimes you can think, oh, it's, it's quite technical. It's coding, it's, it's people sitting with laptops and just black screens with Yeah. Multicolored letters and symbols, you know. But is it more than that?

Gina: 4:06

I would, yeah, definitely. With software, there's so many different routes and paths you can take. Um, from my time in Liberty alone, I've worked in four different areas, so I've had exposure to data analytics, working with dashboards and reporting tools, and then, oh, I've done some front end work, some backend work, um, getting exposure to like frameworks like React and. Using APIs and everything. Okay. Yeah. And then another thing that I'm interested in now is, uh, like I said, the product design and yex design. It's something that I've touched on in different areas, but it's something that I would really like to work on more. And there's those opportunities in liberty to, to. Um, move around and press mobility different areas if there's something you're really interested in. So,

Richard: 4:49

so tell us about Liberty, because it's not a, it's not a brand that, that people here use, but tell us a bit about what, what is Liberty?

Gina: 4:57

Yeah, so Liberty is an insurance company, okay. And then they have, um, an IT branch in Be has Goway and Dublin. So we would actually work quite closely with the Americans. Um, like half of the half of my team is actually Americans, so we would work quite closely with them. I actually work on an internal app, which is, uh, focused around developer experience. Um, so we would, uh, create like a centralized hub and that is where developers can go to, to share and reuse, um, development tools and resources. Okay. Um, so that was actually, I only moved to that area about. Two years ago, and I've kind of moved in and out of it since then. But, um, it is quite a high visibility project within Liberty, so I was really grateful to be asked to be on that team and. Um, I've learned a lot from being on that team and the people I work with, um, have been great mentors to me, so I'm very grateful for them to be, for being so supportive and helping me learn as much as I can the past few years.

Richard: 5:54

That's so good. Tell us a bit about that, that apprenticeship then. So, so you're, you're at, you're working at Liberty the last few years. What, which course have you been doing? What's been the rhythm of m work and, and at university,

Gina: 6:09

when I first started. It was all quite new to me, and I think the, the concept of working and studying at the same time is quite daunting. But, um, I was doing. Uni on a Monday, and then I would work Tuesday to Friday. Um, but when I actually started that routine, it, it kind of just comes naturally and you, you know, when you, I think it's nearly easier having a routine of knowing what days you're doing what. So on Mondays, I knew I had to do my uni work and then I could work Tuesday to Friday and then I could, if I had any spare time to do my uni work. And then I also had free time to. Do social things as well. Like you're not just working flat Irish,

Richard: 6:47

so you have a, you have a life. Yeah. That's good. That's

Gina: 6:48

good. And then, so yeah, I'd done the computing systems course with All Street University, um, which was four years. But you're also given that freedom to kind of choose what length of course you wanna do. You could do three, four, or five years and then you can also choose your modules along the way. And I was quite lucky with Liberty. They did give me quite a lot of freedom with what I wanted to do. They'd all, they'd obviously give like guidelines of what. Um, would maybe work with our company or with what area you were working in. Um, but, uh, I was very happy with the subjects and the courses I choose. Um, and then I, I actually only graduated there a few months ago in December, so I chose the four year. Horse plan.

Richard: 7:24

You got a full bachelor's degree Yeah. In four years.

Gina: 7:27

Yeah.

Richard: 7:28

Whereas someone doing it full-time would get it in three years.

Gina: 7:30

Yeah.

Richard: 7:31

But you were only essentially going one one day a week. Is that right? Yeah, that's right. So

Gina: 7:36

yeah. That's amazing. Um, it, it was four years and then I would've done time over the summer as well. Okay. Which I actually thought was better because, um, it give you more time to kind of do the work, especially with the finding a project. I needed that extra time. Um. Over the summer to get things done. So I, I think it's better having it spread across that's the full year instead of just block s. Good.

Richard: 8:00

And what you were learning at university, were you able, was that helping you in, in your job and was your job helping you at university? Did they work hand in hand?

Gina: 8:08

Yeah, definitely. So from the start, even learning about agile frameworks and Scrum and Kanban, um, I think if I was just learning that university and I wasn't actually applying it, I wouldn't have really fully understood. Um, whereas with work, the teams I was working in, um, were all different. So I was using a agile frameworks. Um, so some teams were scrums, some screen teams were Kanban. And I think having that mix of different teams and getting that experience was so important to kinda figure out what works for you and what kind of team works for you as well. Yeah. Um, and then obviously the developing side of things, you're learning different languages. Um, web design and stuff. So it it definitely your learning skills that you will definitely apply to your work.

Richard: 8:53

Yeah. And tell us a bit about the team that you were working in at Liberty then. Were, were there lots of apprentices in that team or were you the only one?

Gina: 9:00

I've been the only apprentice in all of my teams actually. I think, um, there are definitely a lot more now than there was when I was first starting. Um, I think it was quite a new thing to Liberty when I had first joined, but, um, it's great to see that there is so many more apprentices and there is so many more opportunities and liberty for apprentices. Yes. Um, and

Richard: 9:19

how do you, how do the rest, so you're the only apprentice in the team.

Gina: 9:22

Yeah.

Richard: 9:23

How, how did the rest of the team, how did they, how did they treat you? How did you know? How, how, how did, did they support you in that?

Gina: 9:30

Because my team and every team I've been in have, like all of my coworkers have been very, very supportive. Um. The team I've been with, and I, I've been with them for a couple years, so I've built up very strong relationships with them and they, um, they treat me as just, I'm, I'm at the same level as them. Not that I'm any less that, because I have been working there for five years as well. So I felt like I've learned a lot in my time there. Um, but I've always been very supported by all of, um, the seniors on my team, especially, they've always given me the extra guidance. Um, training if I've needed it. And I've, I've really appreciated that because there's been times where I've been going into something and I haven't really had much background in it at all. So it, a lot of things have been very new to me, so it's definitely. It's great to have that support from people who you're working with and that's definitely very important with an apprenticeship, is having the guidance from senior members of your team.

Richard: 10:22

Okay, that's good. You said how important things like work experience were to you in terms of your journey. Yeah. Is that something that within your teams, you're able to, to bring young people into here in, in Northern Ireland, are Liberty Liberty's involved in that space as well?

Gina: 10:36

Yeah. Liberty are very involved with work experiences and they have a lot of opportunities for. Um, students to come in and work for like a week just to see if, if it's right for them. And Liberty have actually recently started up a new thing, which is Steam Studio, um, which I've just become an ambassador for. It was just this Monday actually. I had, um, I joined in one of them and that is bringing in year eight to year 10 students, um, to do like a coding. Experiment. It's creating like a small game. So they're able to do that, um, using Make code, arcade, and it's just like coding blocks. So it gives them like a basic understanding of coding and then they're able to actually play the game on the console. So it was really, um, nice to see how interested a lot of them were, and I think a lot of them were wanting to see their games and go home and finish them off at home. So it was definitely nice to see that. Younger people are curious about programming, including and want to get involved. That's

Richard: 11:35

fantastic that a company like Liberty is stepping out like there. I don't think there are too many that are producing that sort of resource. How did that all come about? Do you know? Or was it just from the, from the top? They, they said they wanted to do it.

Gina: 11:46

Yeah. I think for a lot of companies now it's important to, um, get involved with younger students and to create that interest from a younger age. Because they're the ones that's gonna be the future, I suppose. They're gonna be the ones coming into the industry and it's important for them to get ahead of these things. Yeah. Yeah. So I think, um, Liberty wanted to. Give, give younger students that opportunity. Yeah.

Richard: 12:09

Take you back just to what you said about your own experience at school. You know, the first word you mentioned was creativity, which again, I might strike a lot of people as software engineers, creativity. It maybe doesn't strike them as being, you know, um, thinking with those two things. But you, you love PowerPoint, you love web design. You know, what, what would, what do you think are the things that. Young people year. Year at nine 10 just started post-primary school. What are the sorts of things that, that you think. You know, they should be, should be thinking about in terms of becoming a software engineer.

Gina: 12:43

Like I said, if you do have like a creative interest, there's so many different things you can do with software. Um, you can create like a small webpage just to get started. Even just to put different shapes or like different fonts or anything. Just figuring out what. What you like to do. Um, there's so many different things you can do. You can make like a small game or just start with a, a project with creating an app or anything. There's so many different software applications that you can use and different frameworks that you can use. You just find what works for you. Mm-hmm. And doesn't have to be. Coding all the time. It can be, yeah, just creating a small webpage that is

Richard: 13:19

something that's useful for, for people. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. You talked about your own projects and you said that you're working to create resources and, and interface for your own developers within Liberty. So how do you, like, how does that all, how does that all happen? Like how do you know what they need?

Gina: 13:37

This project started up a long time ago. Okay. Um, this was more. It was, uh, the Americans student, they just brought us in 'cause they wanted the, I suppose they wanted a new perspective on okay, um, what developers need, I guess. Um, so it is constantly changing. Yeah. Um, the developer experience, I think in liberty, uh, especially with AI tools coming in now, um, what people require is definitely different. Yeah. Yeah. But I think it's important to kind of keep on top of that, um, just to see what. Software and what applications are gonna work for your team and for your, your product. Really.

Richard: 14:14

There's been a lot said about ai, you've, you've brought that up. So let's, let's go there next. And it's saying that there's a potential that we might actually lose some of those tasks that, say, for example, an apprentice or an intern or a graduate coming in, might, might do what, what's your opinion on that?

Gina: 14:32

I think it's so important to kind of get ahead of it and Okay. Have a better understanding of all the AI tools that are available to you. I know in work we are encouraged to use it because. It is gonna, it's got such a rapid thing, like, and it's constantly changing. It's important to kind of always stay clued in in that. But it doesn't mean that there's not gonna be those apprenticeship roles, I don't think. I think that means it's gonna be more because, uh, they want younger people who have a different perspective and are probably using AI tools every day. I know Chachi, BT, and everything is very commonly used amongst younger people now. So I think, um, them having an understanding of that is very useful for software companies and I think, um, they can benefit from. Apprentices. Yeah. In that way.

Richard: 15:17

Yeah. You're through your apprenticeship. Now you've, you're an associate software engineer, is that right? Yeah, that's right. You know, so you're, you've got this permanent role now with Liberty, which is great. Did a lot of your friends go through the same processes as you being apprentices? Or like, what did, what did they think whenever you, you were doing your apprenticeship?

Gina: 15:35

Um, when I first applied, I think. Not many of my friends really knew what apprenticeship was, especially in the software industry. I've heard of apprentices, apprenticeships with like building like builders and everything. But um, yeah, it was definitely very new to my friends and my family as well. So I think everyone was a bit curious about how it would end up, but it ended up being the, the best decision I could have made. And I know a lot of my friends kinda. Looked at me and I go, I wish I'd done something like that, because they were doing their full-time degree and then had part-time jobs as well. Okay. So they were probably working a lot more hours than I was really, they were spending their whole time during the week working on their uni stuff and then. Basically working full time at the weekends. So they found it very hard to kind of balance those two things. Whereas I had my dedicated day for uni and I had my dedicated days for work, and then I could do whatever I wanted on my weekends. And then I was also getting paid as well. So it definitely, there's a lot of benefits with an apprenticeship that I think you don't really fully understand how beneficial they are until you're in it. And afterwards, like even I, I'm still reaping the benefits from my apprenticeship. I don't have. University fees or student loan fees to pay off. Mm-hmm. So, definitely a big benefit, but I'm very grateful that I, I don't, I done that

Richard: 16:54

route. That's great. That's great. One of the things that we've, we've found is that they're still just under 10% of employers here that hire apprentices. So given that, you know, you're a living example of how successful apprenticeships are, everything you've just said, even in the last few minutes, has spoken about the benefits, not just academically or. You know, for work, it's your, it's your wellbeing, it's everything. Yeah. You don't have debt to pay off and all that. What, why do you think there's still a barrier for employers and how could they catch the vision for apprenticeships, do you think?

Gina: 17:25

So, I think a big thing is a lot of employers don't, maybe don't wanna take a student coming straight from school who doesn't know a lot about things. But I think the key thing, especially for me, when I was coming from school, I was so eager to learn and I wanted to. Learn as quickly as I could and get involved in projects as quickly as I could. Whereas sometimes I think people coming from grad who've just graduated and going into grad roles kind of think they know a lot. So they're going into a role and are confident that they can do everything, which is never gonna be the case. Especially in software. You're constantly learning and you, you'll never know everything. So I think having that eagerness to learn is why an apprentice is so important. I think. A lot of companies need to kind of recognize that, that, um, younger people are. Interested in these things and especially if they're doing apprenticeship, it's something that they're passionate about. Yeah. So I think that's definitely important for companies to recognize.

Richard: 18:25

Yeah. Brilliant. And you've talked a little bit the benefits, right? So I'm gonna ask you about the challenges. Has, has it, were there moments where it was, it's been really hard doing an apprenticeship?

Gina: 18:35

Yeah, definitely. Um, there's been a lot of times where I've been like just overwhelmed with maybe some of the work, but. With, um, the degree, um, ended up being part-time, especially over the summer. There was a lot of time to kind of get the work done, so I didn't feel like I was under pressure for a long period of time. It was maybe just if there was an assignment it would stress me out or something. But I suppose everyone has that. And then with the work side of things as well, they were very supportive if I needed any extra time. Um, especially in my final year of uni, I was actually diagnosed with Hodgkins lymphoma. Oh, really? In the dec December. Um. Of my final year. So that was definitely a big, um, decision for me to make, whether I wanted to continue studying or defer for another year. And I kind of took that Christmas to kind of think about it and, um, once I'd realized the support was there from both uni and work, I was like, I'm just gonna go ahead and do it and see how far I can get with it. So, um, that's what I've done and I'm, I'm so grateful I'd done that because it actually in between all of my chemo and my appointments and my treatment. Having that routine of work in uni was what kept me sane, I think, and just having some sort of routine and, um, structure to my wake. I didn't feel like I was sitting about just waiting for my next treatment. I think being able to feel appreciated and work as well and what I was doing was being valued, um, was definitely very beneficial to me. So, and also with the university degree, my lectures were so supportive and give me extra time and extended my deadlines and stuff as well. And then work obviously gave me time off if I needed it. Mm-hmm. And, um, a lot of support that way. Yeah. So it was, that was probably the most challenging thing. But, um, there was so much flexibility with an apprenticeship that you're given the time if you really need it, especially if you're in circumstances where you don't know if you'll be able to work all the time or be able to study all the time. Yeah. So, yeah, that was. Definitely is. Well,

Richard: 20:34

Tina, you've, you've carried a, something that, that not a lot of apprentices carry, you know, it's, it's, it's tough enough with, with having that, uh, diagnosis and the treatment, you know, it's amazing to see that you've, you've come through that. Yeah,

Gina: 20:47

I know. Definitely a year on, it's, it's nice to look back and see how much I accomplished. Last year, it'd never be someone to kind of talk about my successes, but I think that was, it was the hardest year of my life. So coming out of that, I was definitely part of myself.

Richard: 21:01

So you should be, um, we've, we've been, uh, working on a project called Software for All with the, with Software ni. And you've joined the advisory group on that? Yeah. And I, I believe you've taken up the role of Vice Chair, is that right? Yeah. Um, great, great. Tell us a bit, tell us, uh, a bit about that then. What. What

Gina: 21:17

you're excited about. I've only had one meeting so far, but it was such a great meeting and it was nice to kind of get everyone's different inputs on what was, uh, what the next year was gonna entail with Software for All. And being asked to be the deputy chair was definitely an honor. It felt very nice to be appreciated in that way, and that my values were, or that my opinions were valued. So. Yeah, it was, I'm definitely excited to get involved with that a bit more. I know we've got a few more meetings coming up, so Yeah. Yeah. So the

Richard: 21:46

project's all about, well, helping more people into software Yeah. But with a particular focus on helping more females into software. Yeah. What, what do you think are some of the, the barriers that there might be, uh, for females considering software?

Gina: 21:59

Yeah, so I think when a lot of people look at software, they do think it is a male dominated, failed, which is the case in a lot of situations. But I think in. The past few years, there's, especially in liberty, there's been a definite increase in the amount of women I've been working with. I know in a lot of the teams that I started out in, there wasn't many females at all. So I've noticed a big, big change in that in the past few years, and there's a lot more grips for women in tech. I know in liberty they have a women in tech group that I've just recently joined as well. So I think it's so important for women to network and share their experiences, um, just to. Kind of look at each other and, um, talk about how they got to where they were. And I think especially for me looking at more senior women and in their roles, it's, it kind of sets a goal for me of what I want to work towards and what I wanna do. There is definitely still barriers, but I think. There's a lot being done to overcome those barriers and like software for all is such a big initiative to overcome.

Richard: 22:59

Yeah, yeah. The

Gina: 23:01

kind of stigma around women in software.

Richard: 23:04

Yeah. How do you think we get out that message? You know, we've, we've talked about it that already, but. That idea that it's not just about people in hoodies, in the darkroom by themselves. Like how do we, how do we dispel that myth and show software for all the roles that exist? How do you, how do we do that?

Gina: 23:18

If I take liberty for an example? Mm-hmm. They have so many different grips that you can get involved in. Like there's something for everyone in that company. So there's like environmental groups and Pride and Able, which I've just recently joined, which is, um. Has a focus on creating a comfortable working environment for everyone. So this looks at people who have mental, mental or physical disabilities or neurodivergent people. And then like in my case, someone who's just come out of, um, treatment. Yeah, there's a lot of symptoms like brain fog and fatigue and, um, just being able to discuss those, those symptoms that I have and relate to other people. Just to share my experiences has been a big thing because there's, it's not just you, it's there's a lot of people in the same situation as you. So I think having that safe working environment for all kinds of people is so important. It, and like you said, it's not just people sitting in a room coding, not talking to you, to everyone, or talking to anyone else. It is software companies can be very social. Yeah. And I know, especially with Liberty, we have a lot of social events on, we have them every month. It's nice to be a part of those and meet different people. Yeah. As well. Which is so important.

Richard: 24:32

Yeah, that's good. You finished your apprenticeship and you're an associate software engineer. What, what are your thoughts about the future? Have you, have you plans or have any other things that you'd like to try and do or?

Gina: 24:42

Yeah, so there's definitely roles that I want to maybe look at in the future. Like I said, design and um, product design as well is something that I'm definitely interested in. Hope to maybe. Find a role that sits me in the future. Um, right now I'm working on some front end work and development, which I do really enjoy. So it's those kind of go hand in hand with UX and product design. So I'll probably work towards, um, those kinds of goals. Yeah. But then obviously there's career progression as well, which I hope to. Kind of focus on the next coming months. Okay,

Richard: 25:16

good. So for maybe some people less than front end UX product, you know, I, I'm even thinking harder, those all. What, what's the difference between those things? Like how, you know, how, how would it be different for you to work in a product role compared to front end? Then

Gina: 25:31

a UX role would be designing mostly. So you're designing how you want a page to, to work or how, how an application to look like and work. And operate. And then the front end developer will be the one who goes in and actually does the development behind that. So UX and, um, front end will go very hand in hand, and then a product, um, owner, product designer will kind of look at the requirements of what an application should have. So all those roles kind of go hand in hand. Okay. Yeah, there's, there's always a lot of meetings between, um, all of those designers and engineers, so. Um, if there's something you're interested in, there's always gonna be someone to go to to kinda have that mentorship. Okay? Yeah, I know. Um, in work now that is something that I have set as a goal is to kind of shadow someone in a product or UX role. So I think it's so important to have that collaboration between all of those people.

Richard: 26:24

Brilliant, brilliant. It's great just to hear the, the variety of different roles and it's, it's mostly about listening and communicating and all the things that even our young people at school are doing right now, whether they're doing computer science, a level, or whatever, they're, they're doing the jobs. They're becoming the sort of people that, that need to be found by liberty. That's great. Yeah,

Gina: 26:44

definitely.

Richard: 26:45

Yeah. Brilliant, brilliant. Final question then, you know, we're, we're all interested in, in I good work and what's so good about work for you?

Gina: 26:56

Um, there are a lot of good things about work. I think for me, something that, um, I learned the importance of getting younger people involved. In the industry. So with the STEAM studio this week, that was really eye-opening for me to see how interested, um, kids were in software and coding. Um, also the social aspect of work. It isn't just all work. You get to get to talk to other people as well. There's a lot a network and I think with the social events. And then another big thing for me was travel actually. So like I said, a lot of my team are actually based in the market. Yeah, all in all different states, but I think we're going to actually have a meetup in Boston next month. Oh, fantastic. And travel was always such a big thing for me. I've loved travel. Even outside of work, I try to get away as much as I can. So being able to do something that I love within work was so important to me. So I, I take any opportunities that come my way in terms of travel.

Richard: 27:50

That's great. Well, Gina, it's been a real pleasure to, to talk to you today. Thank you so much for coming in. Thank you. Much best for the future. Take care.

Gina: 27:58

Thank you very much. Thank you.

Richard: 28:00

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