What Real Careers Really Look Like: Áine’s Path Into Tech | Workplus Ep. 4

In this episode of Workplus, Richard is joined by Áine McCaughey, Principal Software Engineer at Instil. Áine didn’t grow up dreaming of a job in tech. In fact, she nearly became a biochemist or a secondary school teacher. But a bold nudge from a trusted teacher led her to try computer science, and that changed everything.

Áine shares how she found her feet in software engineering, what her day-to-day work actually looks like, and why she’s so passionate about shaping the future of skills and education in Northern Ireland. She also lifts the lid on Instil’s culture, what makes apprentices succeed, and why industry collaboration matters more than ever.

KEY TAKEAWAYS

• The path into tech doesn’t have to be perfect or planned. Sometimes the best decisions come from a gut feeling.
• Teachers can change lives. One teacher’s advice led Áine to explore a career she had never considered.
• Real-world experience matters. Getting into a company early opened doors and built her confidence.
• Apprenticeships are a powerful route into tech. Áine says she would have chosen that path if it had been available.
• Software engineering isn’t just about code. It’s also about problem-solving, communication, and end-user impact.
• Instil’s approach blends technical excellence with a strong culture of mentorship and learning.
• Working in tech means every day is different. Flexibility, curiosity, and resilience are key.
• Collaboration across companies is the only way to fix long-term skills and education challenges.
• Software NI is helping bring schools, government, and industry together to align goals and create lasting change.

BEST MOMENTS

01:23 “I don’t have a ‘I was always meant to be a software engineer’ thing… it just sort of happened.”
04:13 “She was the one that encouraged me to put down computer science as a first choice.”
06:33 “Once I’ve made a decision, I’ve made it. That’s it. I’m going here, computer science.”
08:54 “Don’t put all your eggs in one basket. I nearly did.”
14:45 “What I intended to do today didn’t happen. My focus became helping someone else.”
18:03 “Try not to get too much in the weeds. Always think, who is this for?”
25:09 “We all want the same thing, young people in jobs, contributing to the economy.”
29:01 “Clients are asking for our apprentices by name. They’re that good.”
32:59 “I’m devastated I wasn’t born 10 years later. I would’ve loved to do an apprenticeship.”
34:00 “I’m acting like a sponge right now. Soaking up everything to prepare for senior leadership.”

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Transcript

0:00

Random day, I got a phone call from the HR department there and they said, look, we really liked your application. We know we didn't make the cut for the scholars, but we'd actually like to offer you summer work anyway, so I obviously jumped at the chance and said absolutely. So I then finished my university, spent the summer working here in Belfast for them. I then ended up working for them as a graduate and stayed with them for sort of six years. After that. I don't have like a I was always down to be a software engineer thing, but I think for me, the me in less than I took out of it all was. Welcome to work. Plus the podcast that shines a light on the people doing good work across Northern Ireland. I'm your host, Richard Kirk, founder of Work Plus. I've spent years working with employers, schools, colleges and universities, helping young people and career changers to make better informed career decisions. Each week I set time with real people doing real jobs to explore how they got there, what they've learned, and why their work matters. If you're a parent, teacher, carer, or just curious by what good work looks like today, you're in the right place. Let's dive in. On. You were so delighted that you've joined us today. Thanks so much for your time. Thanks. And these conversations were really keen to hear a bit about high people to find their way into their current job. So for you, principal software engineer, tell us a bit about the journey that you've gone on from school to to get to this point. Really? Yeah. Finally, I was actually thinking about this over the weekend, and I don't think I've actually really thought about it before. It kind of all just happened. I'm from Troon originally, so I'm not from Belfast. And I went to a local secondary school. In Carrickmore called Maker College, not a grammar school. So something I'm very kind of passionate about. Secondary education, non sort of strengthened education. And yeah, it was there I think the lessons I guess I learned there and the people that I met and the teachers that I had were really foundational for, you know, who I have become and who I am. I was always bright at school, but never was like the, you know, the smartest person in the class never got like, you know, the top grades in the class are always people that were smarter than I was. And I always had to work really, really hard. And it was something that used to infuriate me when I was at school, because I used to see classmates who, like, would rock after an exam and they would exit. And I'm like, I've spent like weeks studying and I'm getting the same mark as you. So yeah, I kind of learned early on that if I wanted to do well, I would have to work hard. And I don't think that's necessarily a bad thing, but at school, anyway, I wasn't, you know, always interested in, in software or I.T in general, kind of probably furthest from the opposite of that. My dad worked in the sector and he's university academic, in computer science. So it's always been something that's been around, I guess, but not something I was ever really interested in. I probably looked at every career besides software. To be honest, I looked at, you know, English. I looked at French, chemistry, everything except software, and it was really a bit by accident. So at A-level, like I studied maths, chemistry, ICT and did an ass in English literature. I loved English, always love that at school. Love writing, love reading, still do. Massive bookworm. And I really love maths. So I did have like a logical brain as well. As a bit of a little rebrand as well, but it was never really, you know, in my head. Haven't done chemistry at A-level. I really, really considered chemistry related degrees and, and sort of science related pathways. For a long time I was going to be a pharmacist. And then I thought, maybe you'll be a biochemist. And I got so far as when I applied to university, apprenticeships weren't really a massive thing when I was at scale. So I was going down the traditional rate of doing my A-levels and then going on to university, and I had to do the sort of dreaded Ucas application and pick my five choices. And four of my five for chemistry related. Number one was biochemistry at Queen's. On the other four were types of chemistry. All the Queen's I remember setting and like my career's class at school and I was kind of not really sure what I wanted to put as my first choice. And it was actually my my career's teacher at scale. And I always credit her for this, and she gets a bit embarrassed if I mention it when I go back and do careers talks at school. But I always credit her with this because without her I wouldn't really be here at all today. She was the one that encouraged me to put down computer science as a first choice. I was always sort of good at it. At school I found it quite easy and I enjoyed it as well. I done some taster days at Ulster University in my lower sixth and really liked it, but kind of never really took it seriously and thought, oh, it's not really for me, you know, whatever. I was on the chemistry sort of bandwagon at that point, but it all kind of. I applied anyway, you know, had a kind of short list of my choices, and it actually cut it down to biochemistry as my first choice. And I then thought, right, I'm not going to put all my eggs in one basket here. I'll stack computer science as a second choice, but it's like I'm not doing that. So there's no no intention of doing it. I didn't want to do this sort of career days at university. The university sort of invite you up to get a feel for the course. The campus. And I remember going to Queens with my mum on a Saturday morning to the mock I was taken round at and, you know, taken through speaking to lectures and students and everything. And I was walking round and I asked lots of questions because I wanted to make sure that I was making the right choice. And I was asking loads questions, you know, trying to make sure, is there something that I want to do? And I came away, I kind of cried the whole way home. Oh, seriously? Yeah, it was so I was so defeated because I hated it. Yeah. I didn't like the vibe that I got when I went to university. It just wasn't for me. I think part of it was being from like a rural kind of background on a small scale. I wasn't used to, you know, a bigger city. I wasn't used to like this massive university where I just felt a little bit like a number, a not like an individual. So I remember coming away from it and, well, what am I going to do? I don't even know if I want to do computer science either. Like I have no idea. And I was so, so upset and my mum had taken me up and she said, like, you're going to, you know, Ulster University next week, go and see what you think. And you know, then we'll we'll decide, it's fine. We'll work it out. So my sister took me up to Ulster University. Magee the next week. And it was like a completely different scenario, like, yeah, I remember getting to the campus. Have you ever been to Magee campus? It's a beautiful campus. It's really lovely. I know they've got the new campus in Belfast, but I'm quite biased. And I always say that the Magee campus is the most beautiful. But when I got onto campus, it was it was small. It just felt a little bit more. Me, and I then went to the course talks and got to speak to some of the lecturers, got to like hear from some students. And I just love the vibe that I got. And I'm kind of one of these people that once I've sort of made a decision, like I've made it. So I did that and I went home in the car and my sister says, well, what do you think? And I said, that's it, I'm going here just to get her science. So it wasn't like, you know, any way of like I had this massive passion for technology at the time. It just sort of happened. Yeah. And I went back to school and told my careers teacher, and she was like, what? Like you went from, I'll just put it down because I need a first choice. And you can see I'm actually going to study this. But it was genuinely the best decision I ever made. So I went to went to Ulster. I then in my first year there's a company, at the time called the CGA, who were then bought over and are now called Civica. And they said you at the time ran a scholarship program for undergraduates. So it was where you would get your with most sort of degrees or four year degree, and you've got your years placement and this sort of scholarship got you, a and internship after your first year, your pad year out of placement. If you got a two on your guaranteed a graduate job. So I applied for it thinking who really is there to lose and went through all the interviews that all of that, I got was they rejected from them. I used to love what happened, literally to not tell them I'm not there, actually. But I ended up thinking like it was a month or two months into my university career. It was really early to even start thinking about placement. I had loads of time, so I wasn't massively panicked. I thought if anything, it's a good chance to get interview experience. So I kind of trundled on finishing my getting towards the end of my first year. And then just one random day, I got a phone call from the HR department there and they said, look, we really liked your application. We know we didn't make the cut for the scholars, but we'd actually like to offer you summer work anyway if you'd be willing to come and join us. So I obviously jumped at the chance and said, absolutely. So I then finished my university, sort of a term, spent the summer working here in Belfast for them, went back for a second year, and then I had my placement as well, so I loved working for them. I then ended up working for them as a as a graduate, and stayed with them for a sort of six years after that. So yeah, it was, but I don't have like a I was always meant to be a software engineer thing, but I think for me, the me in less and I took out of it all was one thing I always tell young people when I go to careers events is listen to your teachers. They they do know vast a lot of the time they have the experience. And don't put all your eggs in one basket. Like if I had gone down the route of, you know, picking sort of two very closely related courses. Yeah, I would have been a little bit stuck at the same university as well. Going back even to so you mentioned about just listen to your teachers. That's good advice. And that teacher really knew that you should apply for computer science, etc.. But I always sort of enjoyed it. I was good at it. What was it about it at that stage that, you know, was your flack? No, I think I was I was good at it. What was interesting, you at that point? It was definitely like the whole problem solving element of it. And that's why I liked maths as well. Yeah. I always loved art. I love that you could always get an answer, about, you know, black and white like that. I don't like the gray or it's like, you know, you know, like, for example, like English exams that you do, and it's very subjective and you're not really sure if you're right or not. We love English by the better. Better is like, kind of had a lot of the time when you did English exams, it really depended on who marked your paper on how well you did. Or I always knew with like, my art and my subjects like it. You're right. You're wrong, and that's it. And I love that. I loved kind of knowing one or the other. And I loved figuring things out. So I remember I felt like a website and as part of my coursework for maybe it was GCSE or something. And I love that thing of like, you know, trying to figure out what it was. I was actually trying to build. Yeah. And working out all the different elements that made it up. And actually seeing something at the end knew seeing something finished and a finished product in front of you. I really loved that. So I think it was that element of building things, plus the sort of problem solving elements that I that I really loved. And that's when you really trusted that, that teacher as well. So yeah, relationship there area you trust. What do you think it is that made that teacher so switched on to be able to see that. And I guess teachers did too. I got a bit of a hard time thinking, well they never really left school. Yeah. They, some would say that do they really have a sense of what the real world is like. How do you think that teacher was in a place to give you that good advice? I think it came down to the, the ethos of the school. It's a small local community school and that was the point. They knew like my teacher or my sister actually now works at the school full time. And it's a school, you know, the teachers know every student, and they know them well. They know who they are. Every student was treated, you know, as an individual. And you were really, really well looked after. And I think it was that element of they actually got to know you. It wasn't a scale of, you know, 1500 or 2000 pupils. I think at the time I went, it was maybe 500 of us. It was small. So I think it was that she had taken the time to actually, you know, look at the subjects that I was interested in, talk to me about, you know, what I liked about the subjects. And then she was just able to offer, like a bit of advice, and it also helped that, you know, any kind of opportunity for, you know, going to like, for example, for pharmacy when I was considering my pharmacy career all of six months, I think I was considering that there were like taster sessions you could go to in the hospital. And I always put my hand up to do those sorts of things. So I think she knew as well that I was sort of keen and interested. And then I wanted a career, you know, and, and I didn't just want a job, I wanted a career that I loved. So she equally was willing to sort of invest in me as well. But yeah, I do think teachers got a bit of a hard drop. They've got a very, very hard job. It's it's not one that I don't think I would want isn't being honest. It's really it is really difficult and but it sounds like she was focused enough on you. Yeah. I wanted the best for you that. Yeah. So she said, I've even said this. I can imagine her nice. Well, that's a good thing. But yeah, it's a good thing for, for the rest of us. I know she'll be a little bit biased, but. Yeah, but it's lovely that you've got that affection for her and I'm thankful. Yeah, yeah. And I, I still talk to her today like I, because the school invested so much in me. I, always, you know, going back to the school to do whatever I can because I know how much I appreciated that and how much it helped me. So I knew I would go back and do, like, interview skills day with sort of year elevens. Yeah. Any students we've got actually got a couple of students coming to us for work experience in June at instill. So I've seen the investment that the school made in me in seven years. So I'm spending any moment I can given that back with her particular life. That's good. That's good. Yeah. So you mentioned that, you're at a said you first of all, it became Civica. Yeah. And tell us a bit about what life has been like then working in software because sometimes the the term computer science or software engineering can feel a bit monolithic to, to folks, I think. But can you maybe kind of break some of the misconceptions there. Like what what does it actually look like to work. And so far, yeah. Well, I guess it varies basically depending on the role and depending on how senior you are. The role I do now is different to the role I, you know, maybe did as a graduate, but a typical sort of software engineer, they kind of would typically, I guess, start their day quite a bit busy, a bit of a day in the life. They start, start their day with what we call, daily stand up. Most sort of software houses would, would run that on essentially it's like a 15 minute meeting. You talk about what you did yesterday, what you're going to do today, and if you've got any challenges or blockers on the aim is really to sort of set you up for the day. What is it that you're going to focus on? And you're sort of held to account to that yourself. So, you know, you get to stand up the next day and it's like, oh, you said that yesterday. What what do you what do you actually do? Which is really, really good as well. It kind of keeps people honest. But really, typically, you know, following that, you might do, you might do a bit of coding. So maybe you've got a feature that you have to get out, so you might spend some time with that. The more senior you get, typically the time you get maybe to spend independently coding reduces because you're your time, I guess, is spent, coaching more junior engineers. I might you might have to have some some meetings, talk about, you know, roadmap for a client like what is it that they're trying to achieve and, and what are the things we're going to achieve for the next number of months. So it's a bit more strategic. But generally that would be a bit of work for me at the minute. I, I'm working with a you ask client. So we typically have a lot of sort of time with them and the ask people and the afternoon to to the time difference. So yeah, it's varied and no one day really is ever the same. And that's really what I love about it. Yeah. Like what I, what I intended, for example, to do today. I came in this morning, you know, in the office and sat down and thought, right, I'm going to work on this thing today. And I just before I came here, I had my ten, 10:00 stand up. And one of the team members is like, oh, I with this other thing that I need to do, and I'm a bit stuck on it and like, okay, well, that's day derailed. What I intended to do today is not going to happen. My focus will be on them and helping them achieve what it is they need to achieve. So I like that they like the kind of fact that you're always sort of kept on your toes, that things can just change, drop of a hat, like what it is you're doing. I would be a bit bored, I think otherwise. So. And if you've always been interested in getting alongside others and coaching and mentoring you, you mentioned that at your call like that, you're going to be working alongside them today. So where did that all come from for you or is that something you've learned? I think I've always been interested in sort of teaching and, and that sort of element. My family are all teachers. So that's also why I'm a bit defensive of teachers, because I really understand first time. But I do. Dad's a lecturer. My dad's a teacher. My two sisters are teachers. So. Yeah. And I've got aunts, and my grandmother was a primary school teacher as well. So, it's very much in the, in the family, that area of teaching. And if I hadn't have gone down the computer science route, I'd also, which I forgot to mention earlier, I'd got accepted to Saint Mary's, so I was going to. Okay, so I was going to study secondary matters of science. That was also my my other option. But the, appeals of the software industry were a bit too, too much to resist. At that time, I've always had a, a keen interest in working with others and helping others. When I was, when I was at university, actually, I be able to do these like additional sort of extracurricular activities, to get what Ulster University call their like edge award, which is like a, an additional thing you can get on top of your degree. And it's by doing sort of, volunteering activities or things like that. And I volunteered my time to do projects with local primary schools. And I loved that. I loved, like getting out into a different setting as primary school setting, like helping young people. And so I've always been interested in that. And that does naturally, I guess, translates into work. I've always been sort of keen to, to want to help people. So yeah, great group then. And you're welcome to this year plan. Right. I maybe can't say too much about who that is. Whatever. But you mentioned roadmap and planning ahead and things like that. It's that the actual detail of the process that you love, or is it the outcome that that client is going to achieve for their end users that you're involved in that for, for you, what what's the bit that gets you up right in the morning? I think it's actually it's the end user. It's I try not to and it can be very difficult. I try not to get too much in the weeds because I can I can hop happen a lot when you're when you're an engineer and you're just stuck on this like one technical problem and you get really, really head down and you're like, gosh, I can't figure this out. Or you're maybe trying to build something, but you haven't actually thought through what it is that you're building it for and who you're building it for. And it's thought that I love, I love, you know, always keeping sort of that user centered mindset. Whether that's in our case, because I'm still or a consultancy firm, whether that's our clients keeping them at at the heart of everything or, and wider cases, it's keeping their like you said, their end user at heart. And it's thought that I love I love when I can talk to like maybe a business focused person, someone that's not technical, doesn't understand how you're going to achieve something, and they just come to you and they say, I want to do this thing for this user. And I love going, yeah, I can do that. You know, they don't care about the technical that, they don't care how you achieve it. They just care that it's achieved. And I love that. And I always try to it can be difficult sometimes, like I said, to keep that focus. And lots of engineers struggle with that. But that's how I sort of keep myself, I guess motivated and going because it can sometimes you can get stuck, stuck with, you know, something really, really challenging. And you have to kind of pull back and remind yourself, okay, who's this actually for? Is this problem really worth getting myself really annoyed and worked up, worked up about? Is it actually going to matter in the grand scheme of things? Probably not. So yeah. You say that's what I, what I love. No that's good. It's good there. And you mentioned there as well about just the family has been very much involved in education. And if you haven't been doing this, you might have ended up becoming a teacher. And you're involved now with software and AI, which is the collective of software companies in Northern Ireland pulling their efforts to try and do things that maybe they couldn't do individually. And you're leading on a particular facet of that work, which is skills group. So part of that all come about for you. It feels like a very natural step from everything that we've talked about, you know, that we've had this conversation, but tell us about how that came about and why you're involved in that. Yeah. So I actually was involved, a number of years ago, back when sort of software and AI or the self reliance as it was at the time, was founded. I was working for civic at the time on my managing director knew that I was really interested in the site, spent a lot of time at civic, building sort of, an outreach program excuse. We've done a lot of work with schools I'd set up and I Digital Awareness Week. We'd run that a number of years. And it was all really successful. And he knew how passionate I was about it. So when it was being signed it, they knew that they wanted to do something around schools. And I was invited along. And that's actually how I met Tara Simpson, who's my currency. You know, that's actually how I met him in the first place. And where I kind of got the thing off, I think, and still sign like a company that I'd like to work for. But I got involved then, and actually, and then various kind of circumstances, similar to the way of it for a little bit. And then when I joined and still, Tara knew that it was something I was really passionate about. And he's on the board of software and I and when they took on Neil Hutchinson, the CEO, and they knew they wanted to set up these, these groups, I put my hat in the ring for education or skills. I had the experience, you know, I'd spent a lot of time working with schools. I knew the challenges that we face. I wasn't, I guess, naive to how difficult it was going to be, but I felt like it was something that I really, really wanted to do. So. So yeah, I just sat Madden and got picked and that was it. So you mentioned some of the challenges that have so why is it make sense for the industry to come together to try and solve some of those challenges rather than style or sebagai or whoever do? Yeah, yeah. So, well, the companies have been doing outreach programs for years and they've been successful. Like I said, you know, I set up on a Civica and it was great. We did some wonderful things with skills, but I always felt like it was very short lived. And we would go in and we would maybe deliver a workshop or we would offer like a little bit of support to a teacher, but it was small scale because we were, you know, we're essentially doing it of our own, our own free time a lot of the time. And so I just always felt like it wasn't going to scale. You know, obviously larger companies, likes of Kainos, next of all at Liberty I.T. They had a much bigger footprint in those areas. And they again did some fantastic work. And that was part of also part of the problem. We had all these wonderful companies doing all these different things and also doing them in a slightly different way each time. So there was no sort of consistent approach, no sort of consistent way to engage with schools and we find that we had multiple different companies trying to solve exactly the same problem, which is just illogical. Like that just makes no sense. And it's a waste of resources. So was the idea behind the sort of schools group is to bring all of the people in those companies who are passionate and excited about making change, bringing them all together and under the sort of set print of software and AI and giving them the space and remit to actually make real change. And that's the key, you know, with software anyways, you know, we're working closely with West government and sort of trying to influence influencer. It's under that that we can, you know, also affect affect change. And we can't, you know, companies can't as much as we wish we could, we can't dictate what an education or the education system looks like. But we can advise and we can try to influence, for any sort of policy change that we think would be appropriate. And that's the power that software and AI gives us. You know, those individual companies just don't have. And so that's what we're kind of working towards now. It's it's understanding the entire landscape. We've put a lot of effort, since the working groups founded back in October time and sort of building the base of what we want the groups to look like on high, the definition of, I guess, stakeholders that we have involved. So obviously, from an education and skills point of view, we've got the likes of Sia, who are our sort of curriculum and examination board. We've got, you know, Department of Education, which we have to engage with. We've got the education Authority as well. So even within that there's like so many stakeholders and books. Yeah. You have to manage that. You have to sort of get on sides. We've spent a lot of time over the last number of months engaging with those people, listening to them. And what I think is, has worked in our favor at the minute is we're not going in on sort of judging or prescribing or saying, this is what you should do. We know best we're the industry. We're saying x, y and z x. Okay, what do you think? What are what are you trying to do? Because a lot of the time, what we're saying is the individual, I guess organizations or bodies are trying, but it's just there may be a bit ill informed. They don't have the support or confidence of industry behind them. And that's where we can come in and say, we're here to help. We all want the same thing, you know, we all want ultimately what the software industry wants is a vibrant sector that brings money into the economy. That's really what we want. We want people in jobs. And that's really what what everyone wants. That's what the education system want. They want young people who are highly educated and who can go out into the workforce. Government want that as well. So it's all about trying to align, I guess, everyone's goals to make them understand that it's we're all on the same side here and we're all trying to achieve the same thing. So yeah, yeah, let's go ahead. I know there's some you mentioned some things are in progress. It's only been going since October. Are there any early successes that you've had? Things that are that, you know, initiatives in schools or you know, you've delivered already? We're currently running actually, a teacher, a mentoring program. So that's where we are sort of industry volunteers to put their hand up to, to be a mentor to a teacher in a school that's gone, you know, varying degrees of success. Some schools are really engaged, others aren't. But we're we're I guess taking the learnings from that. We're running that until June and we're taking the learnings from that to sort of say, okay, well, how can we how can we do that better? I can we, you know, what is it that didn't work? And I'm a big believer in actually like asking the teachers what works because I know that, like, you know, they don't have any time during the day. And if I'm some industry person that's saying, well, can I have more of the time that you don't have? They're probably going to say no. So it's about trying to educate them. And what is it that you're struggling with and what can I help with? And if it's nothing, that's okay, that's fine. But by and large it is. And it's it's a case of, you know, working on that. So that's one thing. The other thing, we've run a pilot, we've called it and the Street Insights. So we ran that and it and back in February. And the goal of that was to educate teachers about the software sector itself. So we brought them in to Liberty for the day, and we ran some sessions with them to give them an overview and an idea of what it actually means to work in the sector. What are the things that someone working in the sector would actually be doing? What are the tools that they'd be using and sort of set them up for that? And that went well. We got some great feedback from that. We had Celia engage with us there, which is which is massive. And we're hoping now we've we've taken that we've taken the feedback and we're running three further sessions, between May and June, one and, and still one in keynotes and one and all set. And we're taking, I guess, the learnings from the previous one and improving it again on our focus for this one will be really on giving the teachers something that they can actually take back to the classroom, like maybe a way or a methodology of teaching a concept or, you know, different ways of, of learning. And that's really what we want. We want them to have actual resources that they can take away. And the and. It's and these are, these are computer science teachers. Yeah. Yeah. It's brilliant. You mentioned just an interest there, a bit more of it but and still and what it's like there. And you talked a bit about the culture of the sample up in the morning. Which is great. And tell us a bit about the other people that are working. And then still, you know, there are there are apprentices there, graduates. What what sort of mix of people that are working there. Currently at the minute, we, we actually we have quite a junior workforce. So we have in the past taken in quite a few apprentices. And that's something that's I guess been important to sort of senior leadership but and still to I guess invest in an early talent. And we've seen real, real success with them, our apprentices and all of them most of the time. Some of them have, you know, maybe are in their like first year of their apprenticeship for like, work hard, you know, so much like. What do you do going to be there for. Some of them would be like 18 or 19. Right. Okay. I'm just you know, I'm flabbergasted at times that they understand the things that they do. Generally what we find as though apprentices are and passionate about the industry, there are the people who've maybe been spending time on their own the weekend coding that maybe taught themselves how to code. They are like a different kind of of person, and that passion really shows in their work. We often find even, you know, a lot of the time, a lot of companies, are hesitant to take on maybe apprentices or even placement students because even in a consultancy sort of background, a lot of the time you, you know, you don't make real money on them. It's seen as, you know, an investment in their future. But we often find our apprentices are good enough. The clients are back. And for them really, which is crazy. And I think it's fantastic. They're that good. And I think that what comes down to that is the, the culture that I'm still has sort of created. I joined and so like I mentioned before, I met Tara through self and I, and I had like 1 or 2 conversations with them at the time, I hadn't even thought I was going to lose jobs, and it wasn't for like another 18 months that I did leave. But I had a couple of conversations with Tara and I thought, this guy's really passionate, and he I know you've got to right away, you know, and he's so passionate about software, so passionate about the industry and passionate about building things. Right. And building the right thing as we as we like to say. And I remember coming away from conversations I had with, I'm thinking if I ever need a job, I think that's a company that I love and then sell for a long time, had a reputation of being, you know, a difficult company to get a job with. And I remember at the time when I was considering moving, I one of my reasons for moving was that I didn't feel overly challenged in the role. I felt that I had learned absolutely everything I could. I got lots out of it. I had worked with some amazing people, but I just felt I had reached, you know, the end of the road. And I didn't want to be like the smartest person in the room. And I felt the times that I was and I didn't like that, I wanted to be surrounded by people that were smarter than I was because I thought, that's the only way I learn is if there are ten people in the room who know a lot more than I do, and I from from, you know, listening and hearing what I'm Sylvia Dan, I knew that was the case. So I applied to them and got through sort of all the interviews and got a job. And that was very clear, like the first time I, when I joined them, I'm on my first day, it was all about they sat a very sort of high expectation for what they want people to achieve technically. But one thing that I think I really brought to the role and were really sort of embracing it and still now, is that it's not just anymore about being technical, it's about being sort of well-rounded and about being having the ability to, you know, have conversations with clients, speak in a non-technical way, you know, to someone that has no clue what it is, you know, they don't care that you're using AWS, they don't care. You know, what language or programing language you're using? They just care. Does the thing that they've asked you to build work. And that's something that that I'm really passionate about. And, and instilled them in us and that we're really trying to, to encourage people. And but one thing for me and that that really translates to your apprentices is that, you know, thirst for knowledge and thirst for learning. And everybody wants to be better. Everybody always wants to learn the new thing. They they want to jump on the latest technologies and they want to try the night. And we're given, I guess, the freedom and space to do that, which I think is wonderful. That's good, that's good. I know, like even thinking back to you and biggie and wanting to get that scholarship with you as it was at the time. You know, looking back now, why do you think you would would have done an apprenticeship had it been an option for you on the table? Yeah, I, I say this to everyone anytime I go to when I go to careers events, apprenticeships are like the number one thing I'd encourage. So I would step back and say apprenticeships are not for everyone and I know that. But I think I had the right mentality to be an apprentice. It's dedication and it's a lot of hard work. It's having to balance the you're not entirely just a student. So you can't really have the full on, you know, hardcore student lifestyle that a lot of students love. You realize that you have to get up for work the next day. But I, I certainly had the discipline and dedication at university to do that. So I definitely if it was an option, I definitely would have done one. So I'm devastated that I wasn't born ten years later. I couldn't have done an apprenticeship. Oh, well, you've you've done brilliant things in the last ten years on you like, but for you, looking ahead and still seems like a great place to be right now. Like what? What do you hope for the future? For your own career? What do you what are your plans? That's a big question, but, I think ultimately what I'd like to do, the role I'd like to be in would be in a sort of senior executive position. So I feel like right now I'm just acting like a bit of a sponge and getting exposure to everything. And the role that I'm planning and still at the minute, not only, you know, sharpening and always keeping sharp my technical skills, but learning about things outside of that, learning about, you know, managing clients, learning about how business operates and all of those kind of, you know, additional topics, commercials, that sort of thing that are so important to running a business. And I'm so fortunate and so lucky that, you know, leadership and, and still have trusted me to, to step up and really, engage in those roles. And I've really been given massive autonomy to, to take a leading role and, and one of our, one of our clients. So at the minute, I'm just sort of trying to learn everything I can, and I guess have a series of building blocks now that will allow me and sort of propel me to have the experience to take on those kind of more senior roles in future. That's great. That's great. And as we wrap up our conversation, I'm always interested to know what people think is so good about work. So for you, for me. Like I said before, it's the variety I would be so bored if I did the same thing every day for 30 years or 35 years. Because I'd say long or potentially longer. That's how long you're going to be working. So I love that. Every day is different. I love, for example, that I, you know, and like I said before, to work today have an intention of what I was going to do. And now it's different. It can be a bit frightening at times. You know, in a bit, you know, if you maybe don't like change. But I love that. I love that it's always different. There's always something new to learn and like what we're doing. What excites me now is especially with it would be a conversation about tech to not mention, I thought with the sort of how big AI is becoming, what our job is now is going to change in the next year or two years. Three years, it's going to be so different. That excites me. Like having not knowing and sort of having to adapt continually, to meet the needs of all of our customers and to, to stay relevant as well. So that's what kind of makes me love work. So much finance on there. It's been great to have conversation with you. Thanks so much for coming and wish you every success in your career. Thank you. Thanks for tuning in to work. Plus, if today's story gave you fresh perspective or helped you rethink what's possible, leave us a review on your favorite podcast platform or hit like and subscribe. It really does make a big difference. For more stories, resources and tools to help guide the next generation, visit workplace Dot. Up. Until next time.