Why Apprenticeships Are Transforming Tech Careers | Workplus Ep. 5

Why Apprenticeships Are Transforming Tech Careers 

In this episode of Workplus, host Richard Kirk speaks with twin sisters Olivia and Louisa, software engineering apprentices at Teamworks. From their early passion for tech to building products used by elite sports teams, they share an honest and inspiring story of growth, challenge, and the power of real-world experience. This episode breaks down how apprenticeships are opening new doors into tech, how support and curiosity go hand in hand, and why young people don’t have to choose between learning and working. 

A must-listen for parents, teachers, and anyone curious about the future of careers in Northern Ireland.

KEY TAKEAWAYS

• Apprenticeships provide a valid, valuable alternative to university
• Supportive environments help young people build confidence from day one
• Learning on the job reinforces academic studies
• Collaboration and teamwork are key to growth in tech roles
• Real-world projects create tangible impact and satisfaction
• Tech careers are increasingly accessible to women
• Mentorship from peers strengthens understanding
• Flexibility in remote and hybrid work boosts productivity
• Early exposure to problem-solving builds long-term resilience
• AI is viewed as a helpful tool, not a replacement

BEST MOMENTS

00:00:05. “You're not supposed to know everything. You're meant to go in with a mindset that you're excited to learn.”
00:01:43. “We were able to get involved in a competition… and the result was us being taken to Silicon Valley.”
00:03:06. “Our physics teacher in particular recommended Workplus to help us get started.”
00:04:20. “Every day is different. So you go in and there's a new problem to solve.”
00:06:07. “From the beginning, it's been encouraged that you're not supposed to know everything.”
00:10:40. “We are given the time to do that. It's not all… there isn't a pressure on deadlines as such.”
00:12:13. “From day one, you do feel valued and that your opinions are respected.”
00:13:13. “We offer lots of different products to elite sports teams.”
00:19:26. “Our two last two hiring of apprentices have been fully female.”
00:30:31. “Just continue to work hard and do what you're doing and it will work out.”

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Transcript

0:00

You're not supposed to know everything. You're meant to go in with a mindset that you're excited to learn. Every day is different. So you go in and there's a new bug to try and get to the bottom of, and it's really exciting just to try and work out those problems with the opportunities coming up with our apprenticeship finishing. There's just so much to be able to get involved in team works. We're encouraged. If we want to go and cross products, we have that opportunity. So I'm really looking forward to not being tied down by uni, but being able to explore and find. Welcome to work. Plus the podcast that shines a light on the people doing good work across Northern Ireland. I'm your host, Richard Kirk, founder of Work Plus. I spent years working with employers, schools, colleges and universities, helping young people and career changers to make better informed career decisions. Each week I sat time with real people doing real jobs to explore how they got there, what they've learned, and why their work matters. If you're a parent, teacher, carer, or just curious about what good work looks like today, you're in the right place. Let's dive in. Louisa. Olivia. And it's so good to have you with us today. I'm just really interested. It was a start off. Just how did you first get interested in software as a career? I'll ask you first. I think from the beginning, our parents were very much look for a job in it. Right from when we started school. And I encouraged us to really go, pick up different extracurricular activities, upskill. That, was in that general area. So right from the beginning, we were able to get involved in a competition with another two girls, or we had to design an app. And the result of that was us being taken to San Francisco Silicon Valley to visit lots of different tech companies. And that really inspired us from the beginning. So from that point, we chose subjects from GCSE A-levels that would lead us to go down into that route. Our teachers were always very encouraging, to help us find different opportunities, for after school. Brilliant, brilliant. And your parents were really encouraging you down that road. Louisa. Like, are they in it themselves or of. They are. They know they're not in it, but I think they've just seen high interest and excite in the sector is. And they thought this is a really interesting way to build your career. And they, they never, put any pressure. But they gave us quite a supportive environment to go after that. I'm sure there were there lots of others following that sort of pathway when you're when you were at school or were you you quite you know, what you see out there in terms of people who are really focused on it. We were fortunate that we had quite close relationships with our teachers in school, so although there wasn't many of us going for that pathway, it meant the teachers were interested in us and really wanted to see us do well. So when we said that uni wasn't the route for us initially, they helped us to find, an alternative route. Our physics teacher in particular recommended Work Plus to help us get started. But anyway, once you go back to school, you can see more and more people taking up apprenticeships. Great. So we were catching up with our A-level teacher and he was descend on it. The number of students that are not taken, stay A-level has just boomed. So it's really, really exciting. Is that software systems development. Okay okay. So that's what one of the ones that you, you chose for A-level. Yeah. There's a lot said about that being a difficult A-level. Do you think there's that perception out there or is it difficult, you know. I think it's brand new. If you haven't coded before it's definitely brand new. But so it starts off with maybe a little bit more challenging. But it definitely comes to the point where if you keep at it, it does click. Yeah, I think a lot of people say the same thing about software engineering, that it can seem really confusing at first, but if you keep at it, you definitely get there and there's so many rewards for doing it. I think it's not. It might have a perception of being difficult, but it definitely shouldn't stop you from going into it just because of that. Yeah, you've talked about rewards, but what what are some of those things, even whenever you were at school doing SSD, A-level or even like what what are some of those rewards that you get? I would say it's a really satisfactory area to be in. Yeah. Every day is different. So you go in and there's a new problem to solve, or there's a new bug to try and get to the bottom of. And it's really exciting just to try and work out those problems. And once you do get to the bottom of it, even though it can be a little bit difficult time. The satisfaction that comes from that, there's nothing quite like it. I know you are. You work in, but by your by yourself, like you can maybe have this, perception that people who are in software are maybe on their own with their laptop, maybe in a darkened room. They might have a hoodie up for that. Is that is that the reality? Well, for me, I although I do work remotely most of the time, we have the option to come in to the office and schedule maintenance, maybe will message, and let everyone know we'll be in this day. And some people arrange their schedules to be in. And when it comes to a new feature work or working through bugs, we've been able to take part in different like brainstorming sessions and really collaborate, think creatively. And those, opportunities are really up building and encouraging, and you get to improve, like your communication skills and really build relationships with the people that you work with. So it's a real team, team sport, I suppose, as. Everyone has so many different skills and they've come from different pathways. So we all kind of work off each other and bounce ideas off. And then The Apprentice especially, we ask a lot of questions. So there's all these people free to jump on a call and take you through or re explain something that's a new idea or new concept. Yeah. You talk about asking questions. Have you always felt confident to ask those questions even when you were back at school? Tell us a bit about that. Or have you ever felt shy about those sorts of things? I think going into an apprenticeship, one thing that was personally a little bit scary for me is that I definitely didn't know very much at all, and I was worried that what I go in and what this would I be totally out of my depth. But from the beginning, it's been encouraged that you're not supposed to know everything. You're meant to go in with a mindset that you're excited to learn. So everyone is constantly encouraging you to ask questions. We need to understand and we're ready to help you. And yeah, it's been really exciting to learn those things. Great. I know from asking questions was something that I always did, maybe to the annoyance of some of my teachers, to be honest. But when we first started, like Louisa was saying, we're always encouraged to ask questions. The environment's always been so supportive. Our managers are free to jump on a call and make themselves available if they need to walk through code, do a bit of pairing with you, or even like recommending you resources that you can go and do your own research. Okay, great, great. And so whenever you made that decision, you said your physics teacher was really helpful, encourage you, your parents were encouraging you as well. What did your friends think? They all going down the apprenticeship route as well? Or were they just thinking, what are you doing? The apprenticeship for was pretty novel, I would say, for our school in general. So you would go into upper sixth in careers and apprenticeships weren't really talked about. It was only the universe. And for me and Olivia, we definitely didn't want to go into full time uni. So once our teachers were made aware of this, they helped us with finding things, but especially when it came to like the interview processes or application forms, it was a bit of trial and error trying to work out how to do it, to do the research on our own. So when our teacher suggested workflows, that really helped and almost encouraged some of our friends, and they saw that we were so ready to do an apprenticeship instead of going to university, some of them applied for apprenticeships and even the ones in the ER below, there's a two that we would stand up with in particular, and they're both doing apprenticeships as well. Let's get so there's been a real increase in that in that way of doing things. Has it been difficult being an apprentice, working and learning at the same time? We're encouraged to communicate openly if we find that we're under pressure, or maybe we've got too much uni work on and need a bit of extra support. So although yes, you do need to balance work life, uni life and also having that time outside of that to relax, the support is there and all you need to do is say when you need a bit of an extra hand cream. Definitely requires a little bit of organization though. Yeah, try and make sure that you're starting coursework well in advance and that even just making your managers aware of the deadlines that you have so they know when you need support is really helpful. In terms of the course you mentioned you did software, software systems development and the course that you've been doing at Ulster University. Isn't that right? How is that supported you and you're in your job then day to day? I would almost say that my job has helped me with uni. Okay so much through work that when it comes in the uni, when we're starting coding or learning different languages, those principles that you gain in work really help with the uni modules. Yeah. So this year in particular for our final year, some of the modules that we have picked up, if there were small things that you weren't quite grasping at work because you're learning the theory behind it, it does gel quite well and helps cement that learning. So even though we both find that you learn a lot from doing it at the experience from work half in uni there, the research and materials that it gives you gives you a bit of a back up. If there is something that you need to go and take a bit more time over to understand it fully. Yeah, yeah. So whenever we started working with, it was Kairos at the time that its team works. Daniel Hendrie was really keen on this, on this pathway. He was self-taught to come into the industry as well. So I don't think he even went to university and did that software computing. So, how have you seen you mentioned about the supportive culture, but how has that helped you to thrive in your apprenticeship? You think straight from the beginning, the focus was put on the experience and the learning from doing thing. So when it came to, we didn't have that same uni pressure that you might have done if that was your only route where you were solely focused on uni. But having the different focus of being able to learn through to and you're really able to put your time, take extra time to figure out why things aren't working and to do your own research. And we are given the time to do that. It's not all there isn't a pressure on deadlines as such. If it does take us a bit longer to learn something, then we're given the space to do that. And it means that in the future, then we can do our jobs better. Grant credits our very first project we were given just a wide open brief that we were given the tech stack to use, but we were told to go off, find a new idea that you're excited about, and then build a web app that would make that, it was daunting at first because we'd never done something like that. But right through the whole, we were doing workshops with their managers to gradually guide us along until we, download it to our, team mates. That was really, really good. It was really satisfying at the end to know that you started from the beginning and then like, we've come. So good to hear. And again, one of our sons, Daniel, about team works coming and and buying Kairos and you're obviously you're, you're part of that your expertise. I think that the folks from the yes that came over couldn't quite get their head around the fact that you had come straight from school at the age of 18, isn't that right? Yeah. Straight in and adding value from day one. And so often, a conversation about how long does it take for an apprentice to add value to a business? I remember talking to Daniel or Andre or Gareth into service from day one brought fresh ideas and perspectives. So that's real encouragement. You know, it really. It's great to see that coming through. I'm from day one. You do feel valued and that your opinions are respected. And yeah, it's definitely a really collaborative environment. So tell us a bit about Team Works into what are you actually using your teamwork, your your lesson skills, communication, your your coding skills. What are you actually doing with that then on a day to day basis. So day to day it could look like doing new feature work, bug fixes. When it comes to new feature work, we might join, come into the office, discuss new ideas, or do some pair programing with each other. I mean, at the minute we're on the same project, so it's quite nice working from home with each other and then getting an on the other apprentice on the call so we can really talk about new ideas and work through problems together. And then as well, we also been able to do group projects at uni. All of those skills, presentation skills come in handy when it comes to those kind of assignments as well. Yeah, that's good. And so what is teamwork actually doing then for like what what's the software all about. What's the ultimate goal of it all. So we offer lots of different products to elite sports teams. And the ones that I've personally worked on, I've worked on a scheduling product that allows them to manage operations. And I've worked on, our academics product for college students for managing their college courses alongside a scholarship firm for their sport scholarship was really interesting. And at the minute we're working on an inventory management project. So you mentioned the word operations there. So people maybe think operations to think of a hospital and things like that. So what does that actually look like? And so say tell us one of the teams that you that you work with, are you able to talk about that or are they there are professional sports teams across the world. Yeah. Rugby teams NFL. Yeah we would have like primary league teams. Premier League teams okay. So what do you what are you doing with a Premier League team then. What are you helping them to organize themselves? If they are using our hub product then they can use it to schedule training sessions, meetings, they can also use our digital displays, which a lot, which is a product team that I've been on. So from there, different scheduling of meetings, menus, nutrition, they can then put that on to screens across their training grounds. Okay. To let all the players see what's coming up and what's going to be completed throughout that day or the next three days in that way. Okay, okay. So you helping to organize these teams like so the ultimate purpose is that they then focus on being asked. Yes, exactly, exactly. I think the example all comes back to using a WhatsApp group when we were in Cairo. So that was all. Let's use that. Maybe someone would post in one training session was but this person can't make it, but they can. And suddenly a WhatsApp group is filled with messages and you can't organize and be there. Yeah. So hub in particular helps to cut down on the confusion and make that process more efficient. Oh that's good, that's good. So do you feel a real sense of purpose in in your work like do you feel like you're making a difference. Yeah I, I do I like seeing, being in the product channels where you can see how our products are being used and seeing how that's actually impacting a player's performance. And the organization of that team is really satisfying to know that you've had a small part and helping them to do their jobs. Yeah. Last year when I was on the academics product, I would be doing bug fixes. So seeing like people type in their actual issues and then be able to fix that and send it, and no one that people were really happy with the work that you've done, you got a real sense of achievement from that. So we can say bug fixes for people who aren't technical issues are just that. How would you what's that? When something that should happen isn't it's correct. Okay. So yeah so far isn't perfect. It's always like iterative I guess. Yeah exactly. I whatever you do and it's never going to be perfect. And there's always improvements that you can make. So yeah exactly. But you do enjoy the, the helping people through that. That's that's fantastic. That's good. And whenever you came into Kairos, as it was, was it a was it a big team that you came into your was it's relatively. It was very small. There was maybe about 25 of us, 2530 right there. So to go into a small company right away, you had a bigger impact than like a small pigeonhole role, if you know what I mean. So to go straight into a smaller company, you really did feel like your opinions were being heard because we were speaking to the CFO and the CTO start from the beginning because it was that really close knit team. Yeah. But now I where with Team Works, we've got over 350 employees, but that sales didn't still hasn't really changed from the teams that were in them. The people that we work with, you still feel that your voice is heard and that the ideas that you have, still make an impact in the products you're working on. That's good to hear. So you talked about how you software created software. It was something that your parents and currency and you were thinking about. And there's such a demand for software engineers. So how do we encourage more people to, to get involved and, and follow in your footsteps? Essentially, I think it goes back to when we were at school, the university was pretty much the only route, but if there was more of a level playing field, almost were apprenticeships for in the back up option. I remember some of the people that I was with, they were like, oh, I've applied for apprenticeships just in case uni doesn't work out. But really an apprenticeship is something that would really help. And yeah, I think if instead of it being a back up option, if it was talked about more on that same level, it would be beneficial. Yeah, I think as well, when it came to the application process, although there was some support at school, we did have to do a lot of preparation, additional research ourselves when it came to applying for apprenticeships. So it would be good if there was more of help from skill from the application process, not just why don't you have a look at you could work through this company, apply there, use work plus. But here's how. Here's some prep and how you can do your your group exercises or interviews, or even just the written application itself. Yeah, there's definitely more that can be done there. I think around that. Yeah, I agree with that. And whenever we look at some of the numbers around software parentheses, there about 24%. There are female. Do you think there's a misconception out there with with women that software isn't for them? When you go into your eye level classes and uni classes, you can definitely feel the difference between the numbers. And there probably is a misconception that because it's been encouraged mainly to man for so long that it is only for men, but actually we all women offer a different perspective and software. We all have different experiences and I think over time, especially with our lives and why our two last two hiring of apprentices have been fully female. I think it is changing slowly. So just as more people and more women are given the opportunity to get into software, then that perception will hopefully change what's good. And so you along with Emma, were the first batches of this is into the. So another batches come in behind. At rest in September another three girls. Okay great. And then we also hired another woman from in this company. He's also an apprentice. So so far 100% female. That's fantastic Sydney. It's a man that in their first I know. It's great to see though. It's great saying great to hear the stories and and the impact that they're, that you're making. Is that going back to your old school, have you, have you had the chance to do that last year? We went back to talk about to the year 13, about to start there. I to to talk about our experience in getting into software engineering apprenticeships, along with a few others who were from different, Stem apprenticeships so that was really good to be able to go back and really see hi, where are you are and then where you are now in your apprenticeship and how much that we've grown and developed as people as well, which is very nice. Oh that's great, that's good. So what would you say to parents and that are just on the border line. They're just like, oh, I just think this is such a risky option for my son or daughter. What would you say to that? Well, there's so many opportunities out there at the minute to even just get a taste of what it will be like. For example, companies offer, work experience days. There's workshops, with companies like Codecademy, you can do free online courses. So before you actually commit to something, you can get a feel for it straight from free courses. And then if it isn't for you, well, then you can just go try something else. But there's so much opportunity out there with tech apprenticeships that I'm sure you'll find something because it's so diverse. Yeah, we were applying probably just out of Covid, so all of our work experience was, online. But now that you can really get into companies and talk in person, it does really give you a snapshot of what it might be like to work in the tech industry. Yeah. How do you think AI is changing things? Even in the last three years since you've done your apprenticeship? I would say that it gives me support in my work. I don't use it a lot, but I definitely use it for tasks that speed up time, like generating dummy data, for example, that I can put in quickly. It definitely saves me time, but it's just interesting. Hi! I hope that it doesn't replace the training process of for me and Olivia especially, we have come in from the ground and we have needed that help. So if I replaced certain tasks that I would like to learn how to do that from the beginning, it was interesting to see how that will work from a apprentices point of view recently and work out. So we were filling in surveys about our thoughts on AI and how it could be implemented in the workplace, and the result of that was reassurance that AI is there to help us to improve and to work more efficiently, rather than to replace the work we do. Okay, that's that's good to hear. It's been a lot sad, but as far as people very optimistic, others pessimistic. And I've heard that a point you made Louisa a few times about what made it to 2003 levels. Yeah. Opportunities. But it sounds like you're you're starting to think about that anyway, and how you can improve, improve things. What's the one thing you've learned about yourself since starting your apprenticeship? I think for me, it's I like delving into what I'm working on and fully understanding it. So for me go, I enjoy doing the research, find in AI different ways that I can improve what I'm doing, and then being satisfied by seeing that in action and working really well. I know from school I always ask questions, but I think being in an apprenticeship, it's also emphasized how much I really do, like to work with other people and hear from their opinions and experiences. So, yeah, I do enjoy that aspect of work. Graham, what about you? Louisa? Is there one thing you could say that I've really surprised myself or I've really learned? I think it goes back to how I felt going in that I genuinely felt that I wasn't. I was maybe a bit inadequate for this role, that I hadn't had enough experience. But really, what the past three years has taught me that if you do the work and you put it in, you do the research and ask for help, you can do it. And it is totally worth going into that. Those apprehensions shouldn't hold you back. So you're three years into your career and I it's it's amazing. You're finishing your apprenticeship this year. Yes. So you've been able to do like a fast track of the three years. All right. Yeah. So with our course, you have the option of choosing a different number of modules each year depending on your circumstances or what your company requires you to do. But we were given the flexibility to choose, whatever. We suited us. So we both decided, at the start in September, that we would try and do six modules each year, which would mean we would finish in three. And our last deadline is the middle of August. Okay. Very exciting. It's it's like dying to me. You've got a busy summer ahead. Yeah. Yeah. So the last three years, if you have you had a summer break or is it just been constant then uni work. Normally we'd be in months. One day a week. No, for us it's a Monday. But when it comes to summer semester, instead of doing one day a week over 12 weeks, they condense it into two six day blocks. So instead of working 9 to 5, and in work, you'd go to uni for those days over the summer and then you'd have your deadlines like middle of July, middle of August, instead of it being spread out okay. And obviously team works are really flexible around that. It sounds like they're really supportive. Yeah, very much so. Even when we've had a little bit of extra work, we've been given space during work time as well that we've needed to try and complete coursework. Go ahead. And the, the, the next cohort of apprentices have come in. Have you find yourself being a year ahead of them or a year or two, you of them that that they've really benefited from you? Have you been mentoring that. We've been able to get on calls or scheduled days in the office where they are currently in the same position we were? They're using a slightly different tech stack than we did to build our first apps. But for the first, while of their first bit of the year of their apprenticeship, they've also been asked to design and develop their apps using, React and Ruby. So whenever they've come across areas that they've struggled with, we've been able to share our experience, help them to work through those issues and yeah, be able to move on and also learn the approach to find errors and to work through them. Yeah, explaining things again has been very beneficial for us as well. Just to go through it again and make sure that it's fully understood in our minds as well. Yeah. So you mentioned that you're remote. So what is this? What does a day look like for you? Well, then what what is what is what does that shape up to be? So I wake up, I, log on to my laptop between 9 and 10, and then, depending on the tickets I've been assigned, I'll be on, programing and take our lunch break. During the week, we also have a call that we have the opportunity to demo whatever work that we produce that week. And we also get to see, what other members of the athlete development team have also produced to understand what's going on in different departments as well, which is really interesting. You get a better insight into what's happening as a company rather than just the work that you are involved in. Yeah. So each week we have that call and then a kickoff call on a Tuesday where just our and engineering team will get on and share what they've been doing and the goals for the week. And again, if during the day that involves talking to other people in our team, you're not just alone. SAT at your desk. I mean, we work, rooms across from each other, so there's collaboration there to. That's quite unique. So that's the super power of teamwork. That's great. That's great. So would you like to work in an office more, or are you happy with that rhythm of where in uni, one day a week we come into the office, sometimes we're at home. Sometimes I think that. All the flexibility is great. I really enjoy working from home, and I think we do have a bit of a different experience that at least there is someone else there that you can physically talk to every day. It might be different if you are on your own, you might want to come into the office more often. But for me personally, I really enjoy the set up that we have just to have the flexibility to organize your day to make sure that you get work done. Yeah, I would feel the same way. I began, my apprenticeship saying, oh, I'm definitely going to be in the office once a week, and then that's allowed to enter twice about once a month. So whenever it's, it's nice having the option to come in when there's plant days. But the flexibility of working from home is just so amazing. That's great. That's because, you know, work is work. It's good. But yeah, you've got you've got a life outside as well. It's good to hear you've got that balance going on. What what are your hopes for the for the future then do your three years. And that's always a hard question for anyone to answer. But for me, what do you see your career going? I think I with the opportunities coming up with our apprenticeship finishing, there's just so much to be able to get involved in and particular team works. We're encouraged if we want to go and cross products, explore new tech stacks, we have that opportunity. So I'm really looking forward to not being tied down by uni, but being able to explore and find areas that I really want to specialize in. Great, great. What about you, Louisa? Yeah, I would agree with that. I once I'm looking to my focus in on finishing my apprenticeship at the minute, but once that finishes it it seems that the opportunities are endless really with them. We have so many different tech stacks that you can go into and, teamwork is so interested in you letting them know what you're interested in and that they'll try to assign you in an area that you would really be excited to work in. So yeah, I'm really looking forward to that. That's good. So if you could go back, over many years, that is now 6 or 7 years to your 15 year old self. What piece of advice would you give? Probably say don't panic. I was a bit of a stressor. So early. Say so oriented. Just continue to work hard and do what you're doing and it will work out. There's people to support you. And yeah, obviously you do need to work hard and fine. It's not like it will just come to you. But if you keep going with these, right steps, there's no need to panic like I did. And I agree with that. Just if being able to express when you need help is also a big one, rather than thinking that it's all on you because there's people that want to support you and help you. So and again, don't be worrying that when you're looking for apprenticeship, they want a fully qualified software engineer because the point of an apprenticeship is that you're going to learn and develop on the job, and that they really want someone who is willing to learn and is just really interested in the subject and getting to know more. Final, final question where we live, thinking about work being something that's good not just for us, but for the people that we serve, whether it's professional athletes or whoever it is. But if I was to ask you, what's so good if I work, what would you say? I would say, just for every day is different, especially in tech. I know I kind of said it earlier, but I find I really enjoy being given something that I leave out of my top for, and having to do the research and going in and working it and want to find the solution to that problem, it is really, really enjoyable. Yeah. That's why I like coming back. I really like the give and take, or being able to collaborate and help each other. I enjoy being able to share my experience with the other apprentices, and if there's areas I need a bit more help being able to hear from the experience of more senior engineers so that just the environment and the relationships that you build with other people is something that's just really enjoyable. So good. Olivia. Louisa, thank you so much for your time. It's been great to chat with you. Thank you very thanks for tuning in to work. Plus, if today's story gave you fresh perspective or helped you rethink what's possible, leave us a review on your favorite podcast platform or hit like and subscribe. It really does make a big difference. For more stories, resources and tools to help guide the next generation, visit workplace Dot app. Until next time.