Continuous Learning in the Age of AI | Workplus Ep. 6

Continuous Learning in the Age of AI

In this episode of Workplus, Richard Kirk speaks with John Healy about his remarkable career journey from accidental engineer to tech leader. John reflects on the importance of adaptability, lifelong learning, and purpose-driven work as he shares how he navigated roles at JP Morgan, Citi, Allstate, and Invest NI. With candor and clarity, John reveals what it means to lead with vision, bridge digital divides, and build meaningful careers, especially in a world transformed by AI.

KEY TAKEAWAYS
• Technology skills become obsolete. Continuous learning is non-negotiable.
• Careers often unfold through unexpected pivots, not straight paths.
• AI is not coming, it’s already changing how we build and deliver software.
• Leadership means communicating vision and inspiring belief in it.
• Collaboration across competitors can strengthen the whole sector.
• Good careers are built on more than qualifications. Skills like teamwork and adaptability matter most.
• Infrastructure, connectivity, and equity are essential to close the digital divide.
• Northern Ireland’s tech sector thrives because of deep relationships across academia, government, and business.
• The Software & AI initiative shows how industry can drive collective impact.
• Purpose is about creating jobs that improve lives, not just writing code.

BEST MOMENTS
00:00:04. “I knew nothing about interest rate and derivatives when I started, but it's a skill to know that you've got to have that ability to continuously learn throughout your career.”
00:01:34. “I absolutely hated engineering. I promised myself on graduation day I wasn’t going to work a single day as an engineer.”
00:04:29. “I had to go to the library to look up half the words in the job ad. I had never even heard of an investment bank.”
00:07:09. “I just absolutely loved it. From that support job, I moved onto the development side.”
00:09:16. “You’ve got to be prepared, willing and able to continually refresh your tech skills.”
00:10:47. “Whenever you're dead and gone, there's not a single person from JP Morgan going to be standing at my graveside.”
00:17:50. “Instead of having 10% of everything, let's have 100% of something.”
00:23:02. “Girls are out-performing boys at school. They’re getting the grades, but still not choosing tech.”
00:26:59. “You have all the best intentions, but you can't maximize the impact because schools just can't interact with you.”
00:44:34. “That's what the motivation is. The difference I can make from whatever seat I'm sitting in.”

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Transcript

0:00

I knew nothing about interest rate and derivatives when I started, but it's a skill to know that you've got to have that ability to continuously learn throughout your career, to realize that the technology skills that you might start your career become obsolete, and you've got to be prepared. What are the things that make somebody successful in the career? It's about that ability to continuously. And let's celebrate. I right now, I don't have any thoughts on how it might change the landscape of software, and. It will not just change the sector in terms of how we're delivering the product, but then about how. Welcome to work, plus the podcast that shines a light on the people doing good work across Northern Ireland. I'm your host, Richard Kirk, founder of Work Plus. I've spent years working with employers, schools, colleges and universities, helping young people and career changers to make better informed career decisions. Each week I set time with real people doing real jobs to explore how they got there, what they've learned, and why their work matters. If you're a parent, teacher, carer or just curious about what good work looks like today, you're in the right place. Let's dive in. Richard, thanks very. Much for inviting me to come along and actually to take part. I didn't have a direct route into software whenever I came through school. I can remember the careers master. Said, Hayley, you're good at Miles and physics. You'll be doing engineering. And so what did I know? I said, yes, sir. I'll do engineering. So that's what I went off and did. I should have known better. It was a lot. And teacher, obviously tons of time on his timetable. And you've put in charge of careers and probably not the best equipped, in terms of of sending people out into the world. But anyway, I went off to Queen's, I did engineering, I absolutely hated it. I promised myself on my graduation day that I wasn't going to work a single day as an engineer. And here I am, like, I graduated in 91. So what's that? You know, 34 years ago, to this day, I have not worked a single day as a as an engineer. What I did do is I circled right back, back in 91, they had started the conversion courses. The MSCs, they run them at both universities. They've proved to be really successful in terms of building skills for the sector. But I was one of the first cohorts through that. And I went back and did the MSC in Computer science, a Queen's, and that got me back onto the tracks, back on to probably what I maybe should have done from the, from from the get go. And that got me launched on what has been a very successful career in, in software development. Why was it computer science and what was the the thing that. I think I have always been really interested, even when I was at school, you know, back in the 80s with the BBC, basics had always been poking around at a dam through the engineering course. It was, a bit of Fortran, bit of computing in it and and I really quite enjoyed it. But for me, it was around bringing together a desire to get into business, alongside the kind of skills and capability that you could do with with a computer. Yes. That really attracted me to solving problems. So that journey ended up then having up to today and ultimately all stint here. Yeah. And those early days that you have aspirations for that or did that all seem to happen incrementally. So did that conversion course came out in 92 and here was just a wasteland in terms of job opportunities. You know, you look at the landscape that we have today where employers are fighting with each other to get hold of graduates way back in the early 90s, and not so much. So you either got a job with BT or you didn't get a job. You know, they where the the employer of technology graduates that they at the time I didn't get one of those jobs with BT. So I had to think, well what am I going to to do? And I was on the train going home from a Sunday lunch as boys from Derry are willing to do. And I was reading the paper and saw this job ad and it was full of, really exciting words, and I had to actually go to the library to look up half of the words that were in it, because it was a job ad for an investment bank. I had never even heard of an investment bank. I had no idea what they what they did. And I went I went up into the stacks in the library at Queen's to look up these financial terms, and I thought, I'm going to give that a go. Yeah. And I did. I put my application in and went across to London. I did the, the interview and got the job, and that got me started, in what today people would call a career in fintech. But, back then it was just a job in technology and a bank. My first job was on the trading floor of JPMorgan, the investment bank, American investment bank. And, I was, doing the IT support for the traders, for interest rate derivatives. And it was just hugely exciting, really complex problems, that I was able to bring my computer, skills and software skills to bear on, and, launch me on, a career that took me around the globe, that gave me just such a grinding in technology, and the power of technology to solve real problems. You mentioned i.t support. So if you think it's easy for me, I think, oh, that's someone fixing laptops or whatever, but was it you're actually doing it on a on a day to day basis to help those traders then. So it was interest rate derivatives. These guys were buying and selling money essentially, with their clients, with other banks. And then they had to load those trades, those positions into the technology. They had to be priced every night and needed to connect the, the way back. And this is like, like 92, 93, you know, it's not computing. Let me know. Today these guys were running on stand alone computers, you know, that were making, calls off to, to, a mainframe to price things one at a time. Not the big networks and the, the cloud and the the big, you know, processing power and the and the big storage part of that that the people are so used to today, you know, so it was really just around, helping the traders to understand how the technology worked, to be able to, fix the problems that invariably cropped up to be the person, who was translating the problems that the traders in the floor were having. Back to the developers, of the software. And then you're working with them in terms of actually getting the thing priced, understanding the risk of the bank was having. And then, you know, essentially going home, you know, getting back into the trading floor for seven and cracking on and doing it all again. I just absolutely loved it. From that support job, moved into the, you know, software to and onto the development side and actually ended up, with JP Morgan in a nearshore development center that they have in Glasgow. I was, running their cash equity trading platform. So essentially over time, I finished, you know, that was the platform that they were using to buy and sell stocks and shares on all the global exchanges around the world. So hugely exciting. And, you know, I just just loved it. It was a real ride. And we thought a bit about your qualifications that got you to that point. So you're, you know, growing up in Derry went the school, got your engineering degree, you got your MSC in computer science. But what are those skills that are needed to do that job rather than just the qualification? It is absolutely not just the bit of paper that you get from a school, college or university institution. You know, that may well be the bit that opens the door, that that allows you to step through. But building a career, having having a successful career is about so much more. It's about the skills that maybe you don't even realize that you're gathering on the way through the ability to communicate, get your ideas across the idea, the skills around being able to work in a team, and understand your role in the team, be it as a team member, team leader, an influencer, whatever. Whatever role you have within, that team. And then just, an ability to continuously learn, like I knew nothing about interest rate, derivatives when I started. I knew nothing about the intricacies of of buying and selling, stocks and shares. And you knew nothing, but, you know, anything whenever, whenever you come through. But it's, you know, there's the skill to know that you've got to have, that ability to continuously learn throughout your career to realize that the, you know, the technology skills that you might start your career become obsolete and you've got to be prepared, willing and able to continually refresh your tech skills, take on new knowledge the whole way through your career. And that's no different even today, at this position in my career than it was, you know, 30 odd years ago, whenever I was starting out. So you ended up then progressing through JP Morgan work in Glasgow harder, then you make the journey to heading up city here in Northern Heart that all come about. You know, those aren't things that you plan as an 18 year old, but hope that will come by. Yeah. So I do I think I've got a podcast of my own. I there you know, and people keep saying we will stop talking about it and just get on and do a, do a podcast. In the book, and I talk about leadership in, in Eight words, you know, eight key lessons that I've learned, along my life and one of those lessons is about balance, because while I was having, you know, this super career and it really was like I was at the top of my game in, in JP Morgan. I was, running that group in, in Glasgow. I was back living here in, in Northern Ireland. We just had our third kid, but I was flying over to Glasgow on a Monday morning from here. I am a very early adopter of telecommuting, of supposed to work from home, on a on a Wednesday. But, you know, so I'd fly home on a Tuesday, but more often than not, I'd fly up and down to the trading floor in London on a on a Wednesday and then fly back to Glasgow on a Thursday, home on a Friday weekend, reset over to Glasgow on a Monday. And I can remember I woke up in a hotel in Glasgow and I thought, let me, what's up? What's happening in my life for you? One dimension absolutely flying in terms of the career, the career satisfaction and everything that that comes with that. But also realizing that whenever you're dead and gone, there's not a single person from JP Morgan is going to be standing at my graveside. You know, it's your friends and family that are that are really important. And I went in to work that day and I resigned, you know. Yeah. So this thing that had been, such a major part of me in terms of my career and my job satisfaction, four weeks later, it was, like, all over, and I came back and I took a job with Liberty. So Liberty had been one of the very early entrants into, the tech sector here in, in Northern Ireland after the in fact, just before the the signing of the good Friday Agreement, you know, they were they were they were here, well-established at that stage. And I got a job with them and, you know, it was a super company. And my manager, a real giant in the tech sector in Northern Ireland, Willie Hamilton, I learned so much from him, you know, a lifelong friend and mentor, he realized that the job. And I realized that the job that I was doing wasn't, the job that was right for for me, and, well, I came back and I did that job at Liberty. I, within a year, was back again and took on a role as the chief information officer for the Grafton group. A very large recruitment company operated globally. And I would in there to, rebuild their, their technology stack, and get it ready for, a capital event. And that was, a super journey. I learned so much, and doing that because up to then, all my career had been in a big corporate environment where if you put a good story together around a project, you got the funding to go off and do it. You know, you're able to crack on and do some really interesting things. The difference whenever you're working for that kind of SMB type company. And the two shareholders, James and Ken reminded me of this all the time. Whenever I went to them with my latest, greatest idea around how technology could revolutionize their business, they'd remind me that I was spending their kids inheritance. So I so I learned some very valuable lessons around financial discipline, working for, for that organization. The importance that technology should not be done just for technology sake. But actually, you know, technology as a very useful tool, to sort those business problems and to make a difference. But you have to get that return on the investment that that's made in technology. Yeah. Yeah. So it's about a year into that journey with the guys having a really good time. The city opened up here and I thought, oh, my timing just couldn't be worse. You know, if I only just waited, you know, 12 more months, then I could have, you know, glided into into city and and been there for the journey. But, I'd, joined, Ken and James. I was enjoying what it was doing there as the chief information officer, and I said, no, I'll, let it, let it pass. So. But two more years. So was about three years into that role, and I'd watch city from from afar. And, you know, by that stage there were maybe about 200 people within city notes with 200 people in two years. This is, you know, very impressive, growth trajectory for, for any company. But I got the call, from city and said, hey, we know what you did for JP Morgan. And in the center in London, we got the center here. Would you be interested in coming and having a look at it? You know, where, you know, doing quite well, but our attrition levels are starting to take up. And, you know, we'd just be interested to, to see what, what maybe you think of it. So it did and I went along and 200 people. Beautiful office down, Queen's Island dining on the what was then the science park and is now got lost and, I could see pretty much straight away, you know what what was happening there. You know, the super brand to come into the market had promised super technology jobs, had attracted all the top talent, into the organization. But the quality of the jobs and behind hadn't really followed in behind. So a lot of dissatisfaction with all these really talented engineers who had been recruited. And so they were cycling back out. They can go and hope that me you know what? You know, I promised a great job there, but it's not what, did not living up to the up to the mark. So, I could see that that's I didn't look, you know, here's the here's my assessment. And they said, well, do you fancy coming in being part of maybe trying to fix that? And, you know, trying to stem the attrition and, and help to, you know, boost the growth of the organization. And I said, sure. What? Why not? So they gave me a job, a made up job. They called me the business unit manager. And, you know, the quick witted, among your audience. It's a it's a very unfortunate acronym in that, they took me on to be the Belfast bomb. And, so and, and I went to, to city and put together a, slide deck that I took around the corridors of power. And in New York and in London around what needed to be done, you know, because and it's the same thing. And, you know, throughout my career, I've, I've met a lot of inward investors to Northern Ireland and, you know, talked about, the success of companies like city in terms of, you know, how they've managed to, to build and to grow to, to what they are today. And, it's a it's a very simple, thing. You know, whenever these centers are built, there's great ambition around what you're going to do with them. But there's also great resistance within the organizations, that they're being spun out from, around. Oh, sure. They're never going to be able to do those jobs over there. So let's send them the low level jobs. Let's send them the jobs that aren't that strategic. A lot important. And it really misses the point around what you get by building a, a tech center here. And you're allowed access to super talent to great engineers, full of full of real ideas run by things. Could be, could be better. So instead of, what was happening, which was getting all of the low level jobs all disconnected, you know, no two jobs, the same, you know, it was a very simple strategy that says instead of having 10% of everything, let's have 100% of something, build a proper team, top to bottom, proper leadership, career paths for the engineers. A real sense of ownership in terms of the platform side there. And really that transition from, that kind of fragmented, singleton type model to one that looked much more like a managed service, provided the foundation for then proved to be a hugely successful growth strategy for that company. You know, by the time I left, there were 2000 city people that had grown up from 200 to 2000. Subsequently, it's gone on to 4000. It is a like a real success story around what can be done in terms of building nearshore, technology. Centers, in terms of building that team that you mentioned that you've been in large institutions like JP Morgan, and then you had that time with Grafton Cannon team where you were, you know, you were spending their their kids inheritance. Was there were there aspects of that work that you learned in terms of how to put a pitch? Well, even within a large organization like city, because presumably you said you had to go with your slide deck. It's not just given that they were going to go to Belfast to to 2000 by the time you left alone. Exactly. Definitely not. And, for me, whenever I got asked. Oh, you know. How would you, define leadership or what do you think is one of the key attributes in, in a great leader? For me, it is, you know, somebody who does have a vision for what the future could look like. And beyond that, be able to communicate that vision, you know, back to, you know, what what gets you the job. You know, it's not just the bit of paper that says, you know, you've done well academically, or that you've, you know, the ability to pass a task. But, you know, it's about being able to demonstrate those other, attributes that are so essential in, in the, in the workplace. And for leadership that is about, have innovation and then importantly, been able to communicate it. And that's what I've successfully been able to do, you know, whether or not it is, you know, for Grafton, in terms of here's the architecture that's going to help you continue to be successful in your particular, mission or within JPMorgan or city or any other role. You know, here's the vision of of what this place could be, you know, being able to go, up and down the corridors of power in, in city and, you know, talk about what it might look like if we had a whole function. Sitting in, in Belfast as opposed to, all these singletons, you know, disparate entities reporting into larger teams, around the, around the globe, and be able to let people see what, that, that potential could be and then importantly, communicate, what ultimately is everybody's I always say at everybody's favorite radio station with FM, what's in it for me? And if you're able when as your, as you're putting together, an idea for for a business, for a product, for a project that you want to do, you know, for what a tech center might be, you've got to be able to Glendale decide, well, what are they going to get out of it? You know, how are they going to, be able to reap the benefits, you know, for for Ken and James, it's around increasing their shareholder value. For for city, it's around being able to deliver software, better, faster, cheaper if you're able to articulate what that. So what is then you stand a chance of of being successful. Yeah that's true. And in terms of the makeup of the industry here, it's as you mentioned back to those days, maybe in the 90s where it was better. And I think and then now we have, a bustling, burgeoning tech sector here in terms of the people that have come and joined in on that. You've been involved with the likes of, you know, women and business and, and you were there at the start of that. It is often perceived as being, techie people on laptops with the hoodies and the dark room, you know, how can we dispel that sort of message and maybe encourage more women into the into the sector? Yes. Women in technology, you know, it has been a perennial problem in terms of that career, attractiveness. And, you know, I go back to my own careers advice so highly. You're good at math and physics. You'll do engineering. Yeah. So, you know, that's still all pervasive in terms of careers advice that have been that's been given, to our kids even today, all these years on with a successful tech sector here. And it's not just about the tech sector, it's about the life sciences, but the green economy. It's about the, advanced manufacturing, that, that that's here that's not well understood in the wider society around AI here. Really has transformed. And we do have to get better in terms of communicating, about, the success of our businesses here and the opportunities that there are for, for kids, you know, so for technology, you know, the girls are I performing the boys at school, they're getting the grades to then go on and do the high tariff, type courses. And that's what's been put up to them in schools by career services that says, hey, go off and do medicine, do law, do accountancy. Whereas I'd love it to be to know what go do what you love. And for me, at the time, it was about, the idea of connecting, technology to solving business problems. And I think that if we had a bit more of that for, young women as they're coming through the different careers pathways, then we would do better in terms of then diverting that talent into our sector, because it isn't, about scruffy boys sitting in darkened rooms, the hoodies up, you know, cutting away. It is absolutely a team sport. You know, where there are rules for absolutely everybody from, deep coder type skills through to the interactions with the, the users, just as I did as I started of my career. You know, as to how the traders were using that software on the trading floor. You know, there's a whole gamut of rules in between. And it is such an exciting, such a dynamic sector, that, I'd love to see more people full stop coming into the sector. And more women in particular. Yeah, yeah. Other examples of your time either, etc. also did that that the that that's that's worked out really well that yes, we've had those interventions with schools or with community groups that or sectors and for example, you know, that that have really landed that message, like how do we get that message? Although you said it's not well understood, how do we change that? So I. I was lucky, you know, so I moved off of city, went into into all state and you know, had a successful career. Another big American, firm with nearshore technologies center, and in both those roles at city and all state, I had access to super resources, you know, through financial resources to be able to get out there and to, make a difference, and to be able to engage with schools, engage with wider, community, to be able to, try and and make an impact, in terms of, economic development right across, the wider, wider society right there. But it's very difficult whenever you're trying to do it just by yourself, you know, trying to get, like minded business leaders to come along and, you know, aggregate, that kind of, financial resource to be able to make that impact. Underwears on, you know, greatly just like there I talked about, Willie, as, somebody who is a real Titan, in terms of the build out in the sector, he really got it, in terms of, you know, working in collaboration, you're not thinking, oh, you're you're a competitor for for talent, but, you know, yes, if we work together, maybe we might be able to get more talent for us to actually compete for, you know, so, you definitely had a number of technology leaders who came together to try and marshal those resources and be able to maximize the impact, but it's still very difficult. It's very difficult to get into schools, you know, schools, curriculum and timetables are very busy. You know, and, whenever you look to interact with schools, you know, they all wanted to be at the same time of the year because that's where it fits in terms of their academic calendar. And you just can't do it because the only so many kids that you can bring into your school, into your workplace at any one time from these schools. So you have all the best of intentions, but you can't maximize the impact because the schools just can't interact with you. And and the way that they're set up and in that kind of way as a, as a, as a for instance, so you definitely had, you know, a lot of impact, but I have to say, not as much impact, as potentially we could have had or indeed wanted, wanted to have you. Were there right at this sort of software and I it's it's. No, no. Yeah. You talked about aggregation, working together to reach people you can never reach, even as an old state of of this world, which is huge and not not in terms what was the reason for coming together. So. So there had previously been a voice of the sector. It was a group that was called momentum. And in its day, it had been hugely successful, you know, so you've got a nascent, technology sector that that's getting going. And they're the group that came together of technology companies, technology leaders. In the early 2000s, momentum provided a great voice. It, kind of came to, its end. And, there was a hiatus in terms of there being a voice of the sector. You know, all these companies were out there. They were rocking it, you know, being successful. Not enough of that collaboration in terms of coming together much more ad hoc, in its way, you know, the these kind of, collaborations springing up and and dying away and a number of technology leaders, myself included, realized that actually, if we wanted to get, a bit more sustained energy into the system, then we needed to be more purposeful about how we went about it. And, so a number of us came together and put in place, you know, essentially, a successor organization to momentum. We called it, the Software Alliance to start off with that very particular focus on software. And that has now morphed into, what is known as software and AI. And that has been hugely successful, you know, and it's a group that is, very heavily subsidized by the larger members of the tech sector in Northern Ireland, but open to all, and that's the way the model is set up, you know, so essentially big subscriptions for the big companies, and then the smaller software companies essentially been able to benefit, for, you know, very low barriers to, to entry to that, to that organization. And it has grown really quickly over the three years. And you're running some super programs in terms of like a real focus on skills for the sector. A focus on the, the, access for the software companies here into supply chains to be able to sell the software that, that is being built and then also access to cash, you know, and very active in terms of bringing others with the capital into Northern Ireland to actually look at what the sector here is, is developing. You know, so that approach has proved to be really successful in that not group, continues to grow from strength to strength. Talked about it by just Northern Ireland, been able to phrase punch above its weight and the really brilliant talent pool that we have here like, well, why do you why do you think that that is, John? You know, you've you've traveled the world, you've seen other places, you're from here. But you know, I think you can be balanced about it as well. Yeah. But I'm also hugely pride, of what's being built here. And what it is that we deliver from here. Whenever I was, leading the, tech center for city from here, city had 24 of those centers around the world, you know, so I was part of a wider network. So I was able to look at. And it was a very privileged position. I was able to look into how others, around the globe in North America, South America, Asia, across Europe, how they were running their centers. What help, what support, there was in place what the quality of the of the work that was coming from and the levels of productivity. And I can tell you that the center here was top of the pops, and, for, for me, and, you know, you hear that's been talked about, but I recognized that really early. What that recipe for success actually is, we are pretty tiny. Place never comes down to 2 million people in the, wider economy, of Northern Ireland. You know, we do have the advantage. Well, some might say it's a disadvantage, but we all do know each other. And, you know, we all have that same common name, in terms of being able to, build good jobs here, in, in Northern Ireland. So we've got, that, that real connectivity, across, that people network, in, in Northern Ireland. And with that then comes, you know, really good access into government, in terms of being able to have conversations pretty quickly with the right people to make decisions, you know, particularly, in technology, which is like a growing sector with a high demand for skills to be able to have those conversations with those, government, officials and ministers, who can make real decisions to be able to target resources to deliver the skills, their relationships into academia. You know, a super college network, a super, pair of, of of universities here, delivering really top talent, into, the sector been able to get access to those colleges, access to the university, ease and talk about, the shape of the of the sector, the trajectory of the sector, the type of skills that where we'd be looking, to consume, and then that piece around being able to build the relationships, across business, you know? Yes, we're all competing for the talent, but we're not really competing in terms of, you know, products that, that, that we're trying to, to sell out there. And then that allows us to get into a mode that is much more, around co-op. And, you know, we're may well be competing, but we're also cooperating, in terms of, building out, the tech sector. And then what has been referred to as the triple helix, you know, bringing those all together in terms of, the relationships across business, the, the access to, the universities and colleges, and then the support that you get from, government and government agencies. It's a very powerful recipe to be able to get things done, to be able to deliver the quality engineers that then are parting the, the software sector in Northern Ireland to. To celebrate AI right now to to have any thoughts on on how it might change the landscape of software. And I think you're in the in the wrong tense when you're saying how it might. Okay. Oh yes, I, I it is changing. I am hugely excited about the potential, for AI, about how it will, not just change the sector, in terms of how we're delivering the product, but then about how the wider economy, how the technology, is going to be harnessed to, to solve problems, but, up to now maybe have been, more difficult to, to solve. Go back to my editor coming to. Right. Oh, you know, what are the what are the things that, make somebody successful in the career? And I said, it's about that ability to continuously learn and adopt, new skills and new tools. You know, that is so important as we go through this particular revolution, in terms of people getting on board and getting on board now, in terms of thinking about the skills that they're going to need to be successful, in the, in the future. You know, people worry about, oh, it's going to be jobs displacement or job elimination. But it's also going to be about job creation. And we need to be sure that we are best equipped, to be able to grab hold of those jobs, that will be created, out of here. And I myself have been on a real journey of learning. You know, I've been investing my time and in terms of acquiring the skills, you know, to be able to use the tools that are there, but also to be thinking about, you know, well, how I, you know, or the until has gone to, gone to involve and, you know, we've got some real fantastic assets, you know, the, the quality of, the, skills coming out of the universities, is fantastic, in terms of what they're they're teaching and getting people to think about, about, I, but we also have got real assets in terms of the AI collaboration center, that is doing super work on it there, which is, dealing with businesses predominantly in the SME part of the economy, and getting them to think about, what I could do for their, for their businesses, and then helping them to build the prototypes, helping them to come to realize their concepts. And then, you know, ultimately get them set up for, for success. So, you know, AI is changing the way that we're thinking about, software is thinking about changing the way that we think about how technology, paths are part of our business. And, you know, we all need to be getting ourselves engaged in that, to make sure that we continue to be relevant, I think, to the future. Yeah. You mentioned some of the downsides. And one of the things that I heard was, a software business saying that some of the, some of the rules and tasks that interns early talent might have done, we we're now getting our existing staff to do some of those things with AI. And it's an unintended consequence that we almost raised the ladder up a little bit too far in terms of entry level to that. Lots of people in our society who don't have qualifications or are coming in at that junior level, that they're not able to use the tools in a way, it almost needs a level of expertise to harness the tools. We still have them. I do I do worry about, the digital divide. You know, it's one of the things through Covid that, was was writ large. I do a lot of work with a group called business in the community. And one of the things that was identified, you know, and we saw it, whenever kids were looking to participate in the homeschooling. But, you know, not everybody out there is connected up to fiber broadband. Not everybody out there has got bundles of data on their on their phones to be able to connect. Not everybody has got, a plethora of devices lying around the home. And I do worry about that in terms of, a divide. And you know what you're talking about. There is people being able to access and be able to, you know, be able to, to participate. I do to worry about, our grads coming out of the universities and colleges because they're super bright. They'll make that leap, you know, to the with what you call the the ladder, that that's maybe a bit bit higher up, you know. Yes, it might be a bit more difficult, but my experience of, of, the way that, that the younger generation are using technology, I'm not I'm not too worried about that. What I'm worried about is making sure that, we are making, technology available, making the digital skills available so that everybody is going to be able to participate in the in the economy of the, of the future. And that's that's definitely something that preoccupies me and. You and I and, and a couple of rules that are probably say non-executive, you know and understand I think being one of those well, what was the reason for you going for that role? So I I've had a super executive career, you know, absolutely fantastic. And, and in terms of where I've ended up running, you know, two of the largest foreign direct investment companies in Northern Ireland, city and old state, you know, 30 odd years ago, whenever I was, you know, thinking about what am I going to do in my life, I never would have pictured that. That's where I would end up, you know? So, I got to a point and, you know, probably was post-Covid. You know, I hated Covid, you know, founded, you know, a very difficult time, you know, so, you know, essentially running, a 2500 person organization from my attic. Very draining, you know, climbing up into the attic, early in the morning, doing all your, your, stuff with your, local teams here. And then, you know, connecting on to, you know, to deal with all the American business. You talk all day, you'd be on these big groups, and,

then you get to six, 7: 39:46

00 at night, you'd switch off and you'd realize you're all by yourself. I find it you're very isolating and definitely made me think about, well, what I really want to do. So, coming off the back of Covid, I made a decision that I wanted to do something different. I wanted to take my career in a different kind of direction. And, for me, that was around, you know, building up a bit of diversity, a bit of variety, into how I spend my time. And, you know, that naturally has led to a portfolio career. I'd always had a big interest in terms of economic development. I talked about that arc of whenever I first came out of university, there was nothing here tonight, a place where we've got a thriving technology sector, in, in Northern Ireland and invest in AI has been a massive component of that success. You know, the vision of that organization, around the investments that that it has brought into to Northern Ireland, the skills base that it has helped to, deliver. I've been part of that and have seen it from one side of it, whenever the opportunity came up, in terms of joining the board and taking on the role as chair of that board. Yeah, for me, that was a very natural, progression. That was something that, that I wanted to do and be, in a, in a, in a position, leadership position to be able to continue, the development not just of the tech sector, but of the economy in, in Northern Ireland as a, as a whole. So I've had that, that role for, just over a year. And I, and, you know, it's a very challenging role. It's a very complex role, but it's a very fulfilling, very satisfying role. And, certainly helps me to fine tune about in, on a Monday morning as I, as I go in and think about, you know, what, can I do today from this seat, in terms of making sure that the economy here in Northern Ireland is as, strong and as well-placed to be able to, to maximize the opportunities that are present themselves and then alongside that of, you know, taking, you know, my career in terms of technology, and that, that understanding of how technology can solve business problems, and, and bring that to bear in the boardroom of, of other organizations, as well, and, you know, having a really good time doing that. Yeah. It's great. However, I, I've spoken to a lot of people and I'm very glad that you're in that role of invest, and I. You know how it all fits together, John. And last question really, we've we've talked a lot about things that are good about work. I tried this when to work that is is good for us and the impact we can have. So our last question is, what for you? If you were to sum it up, what's so good about work? What? A difficult question, to answer because, like, you know, something like a, work could mean having it. I've always enjoyed my work. Maybe I've, always don't work. But that energizes me. And a really, deep and meaningful, realization. I work, quite early in my career. A wife, Christine is a medic. And whenever we were in London, Jordan Hospital, London, and we used to go out for, you know, like round, Hampstead Heath for, for walks. We lived in north London, and we're right on, on our walks on Sunday afternoon. And this lady, her pulled up on a stick, to Christine in the middle of a busy park in London, stopped her and said, thank you for what you did for my husband. And that really struck me because, you know. Yeah, Christine was doing a great job. But, you know, I love my job, too. And we waste nobody coming up to me and and saying, thanks for that, line of code that, that, that you wrote. It was really great. But what that said to me is that, you know, there's a hierarchy of, of needs, in terms of, of the world of work, and, you know, I've always thought that, the value in the work that I did was in terms of creating the wealth, but then the load, for the provision of other services in, in, in society. And while nobody is ever overtly coming up to me and saying thank you, I get great satisfaction out of knowing that the businesses that I've run, provide good jobs, that pay well, that are really satisfying and really challenging, and are meaningful in terms of making a difference in people's lives. The job that I have an invest in, I gives me great satisfaction, because I know that I'm helping support the creation of, those wealth creating businesses, that provide the taxation that then, provides for all the services that, that, that we all consume. And, you know, for me, that's what the motivation is. It's about, you know, the difference that I can make from whatever seat that I'm sitting in, in terms of making here, a better place for us all to, to live in and to to, for families and, to, you know, have our businesses and work. Yeah. John, thank you so much for your time. It's been great to talk to you. Thank you very much for thank you. Thanks for tuning in to work. Plus, if today's story gave you fresh perspective or helped you rethink what's possible, leave us a review on your favorite podcast platform or hit like and subscribe. It really does make a big difference. For more stories, resources, and tools to help guide the next generation, visit workplace Dot app. Until next time.