The Transformational Impact of Employment | Workplus Ep. 8

The Transformational Impact of Employment

In this episode of Workplus, Richard Kirk speaks with Michael, a senior leader at Belfast City Council, about his journey from the Glens of Antrim to global consultancy, and now to reshaping lives through employment academies. Michael shares how his personal and professional path informs his work helping others access meaningful employment. His story is one of resilience, humility, and the power of a first job.

KEY TAKEAWAYS
• Employment can be a life-changing milestone that opens up new possibilities
• Michael's early life on a farm instilled a strong work ethic and teamwork mindset
• His experience in consultancy shaped a global perspective on employability
• The shift to Belfast City Council was driven by a desire to create local impact
• Employment academies offer practical alternatives to traditional education pathways
• Non-statutory, flexible models can better support overlooked jobseekers
• Strong collaboration with employers is key to academy success
• Aftercare support is crucial to long-term employment outcomes
• AI may shift tasks but core transversal skills remain vital
• A first job is often the gateway to broader life ambitions

BEST MOMENTS
00:03:11. “I just think of myself as a little boy in short trousers when I started, really, and I was so grateful for the opportunity.”
00:04:12. “There was a compatibility challenge around all of that, which made me consider my options.”
00:06:45. “The degree was the Holy Grail. The degree got you to a place of where you were deemed employable.”
00:08:32. “The idea of apprenticeships in particular is something that appeals to me hugely.”
00:13:29. “Our commitment to them is that we will take them from where they're out at the moment to a position of having secured a job interview.”
00:20:40. “Our ambition actually is to make this available to everyone.”
00:33:17. “It allowed you to start to think about yourself, in a different way. It allowed you to mix with different people.”

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Transcript

0:00

Getting a job as a transformational moment. We observe people that we put. That's a very humbling experience, watching people moving from temporary accommodation, hostile environments where they're sharing rooms with people to position of where you're getting an email. I was able to get my first mortgage pass today, so that makes us very proud of what we do, and rightly so. The single most important thing that one can strive for when they're young is to get. Welcome to work plus. The podcast that shines a light on the people doing good work across Northern Ireland. I'm your host, Richard Kirk, founder of Work Plus. I've spent years working with employers, schools, colleges and universities, helping young people and career changers to make better informed career decisions. Each week I sat down with real people doing real jobs to explore how they got there, what they've learned, and why their work matters. If you're a parent, teacher, carer, or just curious about what good work looks like today, you're in the right place. Let's dive in. Michael. Delighted. You could join us today for a conversation we first met, I think, about six years ago. You very, very kindly bought me a coffee at Cafe Nero. And, at that stage, you were working one of the big four. So working in a director role. Now you're working at Belfast City Council. Tell us a bit about how all this can be. Yeah. So firstly, thanks for asking me to participate in this, Richard. It's, I guess a privilege just to get an opportunity to tell my story. Yeah. So maybe if we wind it back even a little bit further than that. Richard, I would probably start with. I'm the youngest of a family of children. I heal from the glens of Antrim, a place called Cushendall, which is somewhat, remote from the metropolis of Belfast. But, that's that's where I. That's where I live. And proud to be from that part of the country. The youngest of eight children, my father was a farmer. Started off and, from a very modest beginning. My mother, was a schoolteacher for 40 years in the local intermediate school. So the two a very different occupational areas from my parents. But many common characteristics in terms of the, the, the attitude and the entrepreneurial spirit that I think existed in our house from, from a very early stage and, you know, contrary to rumor, the youngest of the house never gets spoiled. So, so so I certainly think that we didn't want for anything much for grown up, but it was always a house whereby there was a lot happening. When we got home from school, there was always a a quick change of clothes required, and then I go to doing some real work, in the evenings. So I think that that's, you know, for me has been a big grounding for, my career as I've moved forward. So I was fortunate enough to, go through education for primary school, on to Queen's and, and ultimately started to work in one of the big four consultancy organizations. And I guess when I reflect on how that all started, like what I reflect now, I just think of myself as a little boy in short trousers when I started, really, and I was so grateful for the opportunity. I was so, so grateful. And really, I guess coming from the background that I've just described, it was a big change. It was a big shock on into, an office environment and the city center, coming from a rural area in which I did. So it was a very steep learning curve, a very, very steep learning curve. But I quickly got to grips with, it and started to enjoy it. And, consultancy is an occupation where if you're able to put your life and soul into it, you can make strides quite quickly. So I was in that organization for approaching 25 years. Took me all over the world ultimately, which was which was great. And I think it ultimately was always my ambition as part of that work, that I would be able to apply what I had learned in a local context. And I really hadn't thought about it much more than that. I always thought that I think the lifestyle I had wasn't necessarily sustainable for the next phase of my life. So, you know, when you start off, in your 20s, you can go full throttle at your career. And then whenever I get into my 40s, you know, I had a, a wife and two young kids, which were obviously high on the priority list as well. So there was a compatibility challenge around all of that, which, which made me consider my options. And then, you know, the Covid pandemic kicked in, and I guess I gave us a real natural break point in which to reflect on directions. So I had the opportunity then to work with Belfast City Council, and I remember speaking to the chief executive at the time, and there was a conversation along the lines of, we're aware of what you do. Because my work previously has largely been with public sector clients undertaking employability and skills contracts of various sizes and significance. So there was a real opportunity for me to apply what I had learned, elsewhere back into the local market. And it was in the professional services area that I had my network that had my stakeholders. And the conversation was along the lines of how can we yours and how we can create something like that in Belfast, because the Employability and Skills team and council predates me a long time, a long time. A lot of sterling work was undertaken before I joined the council, but less so in the areas in which I had as well made an impression, and there was an opportunity for us to step into that space, really, and create a few propositions that I guess will we'll come on to later, I don't know. And it's great, great to have, and whenever you think back even to that transition between coming from a rural environment where you were working, you know, I'm, we're all your friends working on their, on their farms as well. Like, I was that culture. What was it that, you know, as a, as a teenager you so well I I'd love to go on to a certain degree and have that sort of career. Well, you know, this may sound a bit peculiar, Richard, but when I reflect on the pathway that I've taken through life and I control that know to what I see and try to offer to other people in a sense, you know, they're quite far apart. So when I reflect on my pathway, the priority impressed upon me at school was to get the transfer, to get into a grammar school, to get your GCSEs, to get your energy. That was to go to university. Yeah, get your degree. There and then and in essence, it was quite a linear path and I don't recall having a lot of influence over that past. And that's and I contrast that to the pathways that I'm encouraging people to think about nowadays. And the options are there. And really, they are indeed worlds apart. So that's how I reflect now, whether that's how it was. I think that's how that's how I reflect on it now. So, you know, the concept of taking a year out or the concept of reflecting on is is the right thing for me. I don't recall moments like that in my career, certainly not on the educational side. It was a matter of understanding what was required to get to the next stage. Yeah, and the degree was the Holy Grail. The degree got you to a place of where you were deemed employable. And then, you know, the interview was where you, your personality needed to come across. And I contrast that with what we're trying to do now, whereby there I think there is much more time for reflection. There is much more alternative routes that one can take. And I think that's brilliant. Yeah, I absolutely think that's brilliant. And I just wish that more of that had been available when I was coming through, because there were moments certainly in my educational journey. I think I went to university for four years, three years of study. One year at the time that I enjoyed best was my time in the workplace. I didn't particularly enjoy university. I came from quite a different environment and the city. So all there was a whole constellation of issues going on there. No, I stuck with it as I sort of tended to do throughout my life, of my career to get what I needed out of it. But I don't necessarily reflect on it as being, you know, a tremendously uplifting and positive experience. For me. I was there for a purpose and I go now that contrast obviously was a was was how a lot of other people would view that type of experience. But that's how it was for me. If I had my time again and I was starting had no, I definitely would be taking a different path. I'm not necessarily saying I would end up at a different destination, but I definitely would take a different path, because the idea of apprenticeships in particular is something that appeals to me hugely, and the idea of getting people from alternative backgrounds into high profile, highly rewarding jobs as something of which I think is to me, it didn't seem as available when I was coming through as it is now. Yeah, yeah. So who were the role models for you then? Because you're at home, you've your mum is a teacher. Your dad was working a work in the farm. And were there role models for you or did you, did you just happen to get kind of sucked through that sort of. Well, I think I think that's probably more of the latter. But to be honest, as I said earlier, I think it my that sort of path was so being the youngest like, it was a path that was well trodden in the family. Okay. Yeah. So and I was just an actual in essence, I was just the next one. So the oldest in our house is my sister. We just have one girl. And then there's the seven boys, of which I'm the seventh son, but my sister's a GP, so like, she's got the ball rolling in our house, whereby she went on what was a 7 or 8 year journey to become, you know, a professional and the occupation that she chose. So that was almost an extreme version of the pathway that the rest of us were there, and with a couple of bankers, with a couple of accountants with with a different variety in the house. But, you know, the nearly was the next one up type type scenario where, where the priority was to get a good level of qualification, got a good level of education, and then you get your job thereafter. Whereas I think that's a bit more there's more variety, actually a bit more complex now. But complexity in itself isn't necessarily a bad thing if it if it affords you opportunity. Yeah, yeah. So I'm not saying that there weren't role models. And I can think of people, you know, in the community and I can think of some of my teachers, for example, who were good role models. But again, you know, and it's just maybe it's just how society has moved on for us. I don't recall conversations around role models. I just recall conversations around right worry, where do you need to go and how are we going to get there? You know, a typical strategy type conversation. So that that's how it was in our stretch. Oh, no. Had similar. And then our hosts as well, I, I did maths and applied for civil engineering. Didn't know any civil engineers. My dad asked me, do you know what a civil engineer does? I know, but it looks you need to get to my to do it. Yeah. So, you know, it's these strange sliding doors moment sort of space, you know, that, the you're on invention about these alternative pathways and you've been spearheading. Yeah, a lot of these professional and business services employment academies. So, yeah, if you're pitching it to an employer, what what is what is different about an employment economy? Why would they use that? So I think the first thing to say about what we do in the world of employment academies is that what the provision we provide is, is, is non-statutory in nature, and we're privileged in that regard insofar as what is, what is known statute. So so what that means in my world is that anything we do, we're in a position where we can observe the provision which others are providing, be out in the public or private sector from the public schools, colleges, colleges, colleges, training providers. So we're observing what and then I guess where we think we fit within the puzzle is that there are people for whom that doesn't work, for whom the existing provision doesn't work. And that's not necessarily by design. It's just hired. They're workings of that system. So ultimately we're a council. So therefore we're accountable to our ratepayers. So what we're trying to offer the residents of Belfast is an opportunity for those who want to obtain employment. But we're trying to offer the opportunity to those who maybe don't necessarily have the qualifications or indeed the work experience that typically is required by these higher end employers within the likes of the technology industry or the professional services industry. So my day job involves really asking employers and talking to employers to really critically assess whether the criteria and the specifications, which they're setting out, how well they match the job roles that those individuals undertake. So do entry level role positions, for example, require a degree and do they require, or do they require more practical skills? So what we're trying to do through your academy process, which in essence is a boot camp type style, intervention is we're trying to offer people in Belfast, people whom we spot potential in, people who can demonstrate to us that they have potential and aptitude to work within, these quite demanding industries. And our commitment to them is that we will take them from where they're out at the moment to a position of having secured a job interview with a recruiting employer for those individuals. Okay, okay. So on the supply, that's that's the offer. The offer is if you can demonstrate to us that you have a bit of something about you. Yeah, that we can then work on with you. Then what we also need to do is have a set of employers in lockstep with us, people who have reflected on their specifications, people who have reflected on the extent to which those qualifications and experience are necessary. And we bring one to the other. And we ask those employers to consider these applicants for those roles. Yeah, yeah. And the quid pro quo in this is that we invest in the individuals. And the employer ultimately then has a choice to make at the end that as to whether they think those individuals can fit within their business. Okay. So it's employers are so to speak, tick. And if there's a risk there that they're maybe trying something new. So how do you how do you de-risk it for the employer that you've brought on board. Are there any examples you can give us of that. So there's huge efforts made to de-risk it for the employer. So where an employer so typically the conversation at the highest level within employers is we love this. This sounds great. How can we get involved. And then the conversation trickles down into an HR for a talent acquisition. Analytical conversation which then tends to become a bit more complex, I would say, because existing recruitment channels perhaps have been committed to, plans or already in place for that. So that can take a bit of time to work through. But where we have had more success is where those types of organizations do need to work with existing recruitment channel, some of which are planned out six, 12, 18 months. But there are also organizations who say to us, you know what, we want to do this as well, and we want to diversify our workforce. So in terms of de-risking it for them, what we say to the employer is the people who we will present to you, for interview, we're giving you an employer an opportunity to influence the curriculum that those individuals will have studied over a period of days and weeks. And we also will give you an opportunity to call in and see and visit and talk to these individuals throughout the course of that. And in that way, troubleshoot any queries or questions that the individuals might have, in a way, trying to mold the individuals towards the needs of that job and and that employer. The other big part of, of, of the de-risking is it doesn't cost them anything. It doesn't cost the employer any cash. No. We do ask for some input in terms of staff time for the co-design of the curriculum. The visits that I just mentioned. But we don't ask for a cash contribution as such. So the best examples that I can think of are where we have a group of people come through at the moment with not the biggest employer in the city, but they're probably one of the best examples of the way in which they have leaned into the process that I've just outlined. They sat with us whilst we selected the candidates for the Academy. They helped us co-design the curriculum. There have been present probably every week in some capacity, in person, in the training center. Once this has been going on and we're at the point now where we'll be interviewing those individuals, I would say that's as close to the best examples that we've had, and I'm hopeful that we'll get the outcomes. And and that's good for the business as well. That's good for the organization because they'll get work ready. Employees who have a better foundation, technical skills that we have imparted upon them that they can take them and put them into their bona fide new job roles that will exist for the grant on this upper hand over it then. Do you like hand off at that point, or is there any support to you on the social issues? Because the people that we're trying to help, many of them have never had a job, and many of them, for many of them, maybe a part time job, at best. So our commitment to them is to work with them. So from the point of employment, our commitment is to work with them for a further six months, something that we call aftercare. So we stay with those individuals and we check in with them. No, for some it becomes very late touch. Very quickly. The company picks up the pastoral element, the body systems, etc. they become bona fide employees in the same way as others from other employment pathways. But for others, they just need maybe a bit more coaching and support as they integrate themselves into the world of work. So our commitment to stay with them for a further six months beyond beyond the point of employment, and typically that has worked well for us. That's great. That's great. So how many of those academies then, have you been? Have you worked on how many people have come through? How many employers? So so at an aggregate level, the council is working with circa 750 to 800 people per year across these programs and are into employment rates typically are of the order of 80%. Okay. So which is really strong and something we're really proud of. But there's a lot of effort goes in to get to getting that know that's at an aggregate level who the numbers of people that we're processing each year. We're largely sectoral focused. So with good people in the team here pointed at different sectors as I said earlier, when I joined the council, we hadn't done much of anything in the world of professional services. So in the time that I've been here, we're now into our six. We're just completing our sixth cohort on the technology side. So that's about upwards on 100 people that we've put through our technology academies. Our technology academies tend to be the longer of our intervention. So they're there for months and duration full time Monday to Friday for individuals. So again, that's a big commitment from them. And whereas some of our other interventions tend to be much shorter, could be it could be as little as a week and so on. And some of our and some of our other sectors. So yeah, that's the sorts of numbers of, of people that we're affecting. What I say to people is when, when we're talking about this May and this may change a little bit because you're but my ambition for starting what I've started is actually for us to become a bit redundant in it. And what I mean by that is that if what we're creating and the testbed, and that's ultimately what I think we are a bit of a testbed for new ideas and concepts. If we're successful in that, it will work for us. It will outgrow the council. So why would only people of Belfast be facilitated in terms of getting into a technology rule or a business services role? Why would this not be something that would be available to everyone across the country? So we do have a regular and ongoing dialog with colleagues in central government as to how these things ultimately might migrate from us, who do have flexibility and perhaps more flexibility than central government have, and home that might ultimately move to them. So I would say, you know, where, you know, in the scheme of things, it might sound relatively small. I think our conversion is strong, which is something that gives us a lot of oxygen. But our ambition actually is to make this available to everyone. Yeah. Yeah. You, you think of 100 people. So that's, that's millions of additional value. And I know that's from an economic point of view, but it's the social side of it as well. You've got people who have been out of work, people who have been working in jobs they may want enjoying another working in these. So we have a range of people coming forward to retro like work with people who have never worked with good people, who work for a period, for whatever reason, need to leave the labor market and wish to return. And for some, that might be returning into an industry that they have no experience. And but we also have I can think of, you know, Covid had a big impact for us. Like we had a number of people came to us subsequent to Covid. People who had, I can think of a chap who his business went to the wall as a result of Covid, and he's now a software developer and a global organization in the city. And this is someone who did try alternative pathways previous to that, did do a bit of self-study. He did do assured skills in other programs, but for whatever reason was unable to get the outcome. And now they're in the position that they've always wanted. And I can think of other people, maybe, who came from a sort of a completely different, like an offender background, for example, people who had been in prison, but people who, whilst they were in prison demonstrated learning and undertook courses and different levels of opportunity, which there were there came out and actually one was an opportunity to apply that. So I can think of people who we've picked up who were in temporary accommodation, for example, and they know on their first house, you know, so there's a massive impact around that. No, not everyone is like that. We also have, you know, a lot of migrants, as you would expect, applying people here in their own home country are tremendously well qualified. But the conversion into Northern Ireland into it hasn't really worked for them. So we're in the world of integrating them back and trying to get them back up, you know, and make them much more sustainable economic entities in and of themselves. And that may be quite crude and cold. But I know economics in me and the economist in me sort of takes these things back to very simple demand and supply terms for those people have a great desire to work, but they have barriers that they can't they cannot overcome. And that's our role is to help them with that. Yeah. Yeah. So there's the professional business services sectors here. There's a report published on I last, last week about when we need policy. You know, we need a strategy for Northern Ireland around that. And it picked up only in the public sector. But I think it does apply to the private sector. But it's mostly going to be professional and business services jobs are actually going to be affected by I maybe rather more so than than manual jobs. Yeah. Farming. Yeah. Carpentry, playing a tractor amputee. Nil nil technicians. So how do you see it playing? I know for say, the next five years, you're talking about wanting the council almost to hand off this program in some shape or form. But what's your take on what I is going to do to the professional services sector? So look at this. There's a lot of people, I think, looking over their shoulder in relation to AI are worried about their roles, are worried about their jobs. There is no doubt that as AI continues to become more sophisticated and rolled out, there is no doubt that some of those more repetitive tasks will ultimately get sucked in by AI. My personal view, on AI is that when I think back to when I started in my career, I compare and contrast that to what it takes to to survive and succeed in in, in in the world today, the threads, are the same. So the skills of the future that individuals will need, in my view, are sort of what's probably more generally called in recent times, transversal skills. So whether there's AI or whether there isn't AI and the pace at which I will dictate will dictate itself. But to me, an ability to communicate, work as part of a team, collaborate, present yourself, problem solve. Those are the skills that where as needed. 25 years ago, 30 as they are today. So I will absolutely disrupt some of our roles within professional business services. But it needs to be programed. It needs to be educated. It needs there's still will be a basic human interaction required, and the skills that will be required are the ones that I think I've just talked about. And in a way, those are the golden threads, Richard, that existed many, many, and people get all fixated on things which which I think is fair. But I think, like I was in that conversation last week was a lady from the farm sector who now wants to get into the banking world through circumstances she she really wants to get into. And the conversation I was having and her starting position was me, was I knew nothing about banking. Now this is somebody has 25 years farming experience. And the conversation I was having was, all right, well, that's park the experience point. Tell me what your skills are. Let's have a skills conversation. And the skills were right up there. And what we now need to do with that individual, similar to what you're asking about, they need to apply those skills into a different context. And that's how I rightly or wrongly, perceive the world of AI to be. You know, I'm with all get sucked into the chat GPT all this all gets sucked into that and it's tremendously helpful. But it can't do your job completely. Absolutely not. And will require those other skills. In the world of employment academies, we would call them employability skills. Those will be required and necessary, I think, as we go forward, regardless of the pace of AI. Yeah, yeah. Interesting. That was in the context of AI that you mentioned about that learning moving forward, banking. But I think that's an interesting skills point is that she wasn't able to see that to be in banking. He actually can't she could be in banking with all those skills that she has just spoke to me about their deep research knowledge, their research skills, their attention to detail. It was a very easy conversation for me, Richard, because I am thinking, and I know a little bit about the banking world enough to think that those sorts of skills are going to be in high demand yet. So actually, it wasn't necessarily a skills issue, that it was actually more of a mental barrier that she had, that she was trying to move from something that she knew very well into something that she didn't know very much about. But actually, I think in the eyes of an employer, she had lots of skills which were which would be in high demand. But I think that's quite a natural reaction for, you know, if you take yourself probably if you're in fact, in your own career, it was probably times whenever you were extremely confident in the knowledge. But equally, I'm sure there's times and situations you get yourself into if you're like the rest of us, where it's very much it can feel anything but. But actually what you become is you become more resilient to dealing with those. So when you're in a situation of where you feel a little bit more uncomfortable, you actually just get used to dealing with that in a different way. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You have to be comfortable with being uncomfortable. Yeah. And my previous occupation, you know, a lot of people would have had a lot to say just about the direction of the organization. And sometimes it wasn't clear there was only you had to become comfortable with ambiguity. There had to be a level of a there's always a level of and we're living in a complex world where things don't work in straight lines, and that can be uncomfortable for. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You mentioned earlier that your dog farmer and a couple of weeks ago you told me you were taking a week off to go and, lamb yeah. So tell me about if it's about like, the skills that are there, and what you're doing. So look at, my father and I say, you know, he started off from modest beginnings. He acquired quite a lot of land over his, lifetime. And we built our home on one of, the farms that he purchased, during his time. So, that's where we built our home, and that's where I would keep a few animals as well. So lambing time can be a busy can be a busy time, in a way. And and this year, we were blessed with the weather. The weather was a godsend, I guess. And certainly very different from previous years that we've had. But, you know, I can't help but take this back to the conversation part of the conversation we've just had around what one needs to have about them in order to get through that period. So you're working as part of a team. You're working as part of a team to get to your destination, which is usually a time zone, what you're normally trying to get through for what can seem like three or 3 to 4 weeks of purgatory. To be perfectly honest. But you're working with others and you're communicating with them all the time, and you do have your ups and downs in that. But do you share your successes when you get them and you recognize those? And what's the contrast from my from my office space role to what I do at home can seem worlds apart. There are many parallels, and the skills that I learned whenever I was a kid, you know, are still the things that you need to succeed. As as I've said already and across a range of occupations. So yeah, listen, it's a great contrast. And, and I've seen, like in my previous role, coming home from being in Europe or further afield and, and absolutely exhausted and driving, you know, through the hills to get to the coast. And when you see the sea in front of you, it takes a shaggy eight hour sleep to you. To be perfectly honest, you just your eyes brighten up and you just get that extra burst of energy. Now that's what works for me. That's what works for me. That wouldn't necessarily work for everyone. But that contrast is very healthy for me, and it's also a good family environment and environment for for bringing up children. I think, and I get some out of the house and keeps them active. So I remember whenever I went to London at the start and I was chatting to colleagues about, you know, weekends and evenings, and they thought I was absolutely crackers. You know, I was talking to people, hey, I was chatting to people who had yachts and Bentleys and Jaguars, and I hardly ever knew what those things were at that stage. And I was going out in the evenings and getting mocked and up to the elbows, you know, getting, getting work done around the farm. So, that worked for me, Richard, that worked for me. Yeah. As I say, I think there's, I think the skills that are important to succeed in that world are similar. To what? To what we're trying to do. Yeah. You know, at the end of the day, you know, and people I think what we're trying to build as we build resilience as well because we all have our knocks, we all have our ups and downs. We all have our disappointments either personally or professionally. And we're trying to build in people. So I would have people, for example, who, despite us explaining to what to them, what's involved in our academies, who would come to me after a week or something and say or suchlike and say, you know, I didn't realize this was going to be so intense or so you know, and this goes on for another 12. It yes, it does go on for another 12 weeks. And, and I'm saying to them, you know, you know, something's hard earned with me. As you know, Richard and I would be saying to them, you know, but that's what the world of work is going to be like. Yeah. So this is like a soft test. This isn't like, you know, a gentle introduction for you. And so, so just building that element of resilience in people, I think is really, really important. And if you've got that, I think you can go far. Yeah. Great. You've touched on a little bit, but I want to finish with a question which is very direct. But for you, what's so great about work? When I observe people whom we have afforded work opportunities to an observer observed the transformation in their lives, it opens so many doors for people. It gives people an opportunity, it gives people money. It gives people an opportunity to build out aspects of their lives which previously just was not possible for them. So in my life, I talk about moments that matter. And they can be personal and professional moments that matter. But getting my first job was a moment that mattered to me in my life. It just, it it brought you into a different circle of people. It brought you into a range of stakeholders that you would not have otherwise had access to. It allowed you to start to think about yourself, in a different way. It allowed you to mix with different people. It allowed you to get almost building your life. Cars, houses, all of those things became came onto the radar, which previously they they weren't. So I think it's it's the single most important thing that one can strive for when they're young is to get their first job. And as I said, you know, and we've talked about through this discussion, your first job doesn't need to be your only job as well. So with people so getting that first job actually allows you then to reflect upon is this what I would like to be doing? Is this what I thought it would be? And if it's not, you're still working whilst you're exploring other things and that, it's quite a nice place to be as well. So you'll make connections, you'll, you'll build your ideal network, and that will be how you will progress through your life and through and through your career. So I think, you know, I can think of few things more important when you're young and striving, to move forward as an individual, getting a job as a transformational moment. And as I say, there are, we observe people that we put. And that's a very humbling experience watching people moving. I said earlier from temporary accommodation, hostile environments where they're sharing rooms with people to a position of where you're getting an email. I was able to get my first mortgage pass today, you know, so that makes us very proud of what we do, and rightly so. So, but it also gives us tremendous oxygen. Richard, to want to continue to do what we do. Great. Michael, always really enjoy hearing your take on things and chatting with you. Thanks so much for your taking your time. Very well. I thank you. Thanks for tuning in to work. Plus, if today's story gave you fresh perspective or helped you rethink what's possible, leave us a review on your favorite podcast platform or hit like and subscribe. It really does make a big difference. For more stories, resources and tools to help guide the next generation, visit Work Plus Startup. Until next time.