The Hidden Careers in Software (It’s Not Just Coding) | Workplus Ep. 10

Building a Software-First Future for All

In this episode of Workplus, host Richard Kirk sits down with Neil Hutcheson, CEO of Software NI, to explore how education, industry, and government can work together to embed software and AI into everyday life. Neil shares how his organisation is advocating for computer science to become as foundational as maths in schools, how policy can unlock systemic change, and why non-traditional paths into the software sector matter more than ever. With insight, clarity, and passion, Neil makes a compelling case for a future where everyone can build and belong in the world of software.

KEY TAKEAWAYS
• Work gives people purpose, opportunity, and connection
• Only 1 in 4 post-primary schools in NI has a dedicated software teacher
• Industry insights days and mentoring schemes are equipping teachers with practical tools
• Software and AI need to be normalised in schools just like maths or English
• Industry can help fill the gap where schools lack dedicated computing staff
• Apprenticeships and academies offer vital alternatives to traditional university routes
• Government policy change is key to unlocking education and infrastructure improvements
• AI tools are making it easier for students to start building from an early age
• Human traits like communication and problem-solving are as critical as technical skills
• Sales is a vital, overlooked career path within the software sector

BEST MOMENTS
00:02:54. “Some people are good at some things, and some people are good at other things.”
00:04:16. “Only 1 in 4 of our post-primary schools has a sort of dedicated software teacher.”
00:05:21. “The best way you can do it is to help kids to understand and start to build.”
00:09:07. “We’ve set up Industry Insights Days, so we’ve got teachers come in and learn.”
00:15:02. “An apprentice really benefits because they go in from day one and they start to learn.”
00:27:14. “Why not harness that? Sales selling is one of those people are pretty good at naturally.”
00:34:14. “Get 40 additional software apprentices who are women among your wider companies.”
00:40:23. “You gotta take a punt. Now, I think of apprenticeships as sometimes... not always.”
00:47:16. “It all makes sense when you look back. Then left a role and worked full time trying to make it as a photographer.” 

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Transcript

0:00

So let's just say that the work is a fundamental of life, but what it gives you is this, like, look where we are, and I, I wouldn't have met you if it wasn't for equal work. It brings people of all different, shapes, sizes, skills, interests together. And their place. So for me, I've always loved what work gives you that higher purpose, And not only that, you do have the distinct advantage of being able to get money and pay your bills, which then leads to more things, experiences, etc., etc.. Welcome to Work, plus the podcast that shines a light on the people doing good work across Northern Ireland. I'm your host, Richard Kirk, founder of Work Plus. I spent years working with employers, schools, colleges and universities, helping young people and career changers to make better informed career decisions. Each week I sat down with real people doing real jobs to explore how they got there, what they've learned, and why their work matters. If you're a parent, teacher, carer, or just curious about what good work looks like today, you're in the right place. Let's dive in. Neal, it's so great to have you on podcast today. Are you Kevin? I'm Kevin. Great. Thank you. How you doing? Okay. Yeah, I'm I'm doing well. Looking forward to this one for a while. So you started your role at all for any October 2024. So. Yeah. Yeah. There was an article I read about you. You said you wanted, computer science to be as normal as maths in school. So tell us about a bit. Okay. Where did that come from? You know. Oh, good question. I suppose for us, like a self or an AI, what we're trying to do is accelerate the software industry and software industry, and and AI is it's pretty good already, right? It would be seen as a success. But whenever you're trying to grow something like an industry, there's an awful lot of component parts that go into it. One of which, is, is skills. And so what we've tried to do is, is break down those sort of component parts in the industry and, try to understand how people might get more into computer science software development, with a view to that then making its way into the industry. So, I suppose you look at the data and you'll see that, quite a few more people will study maths and English and your core subjects versus software development. So that's probably where a statement like that came from, amongst a lot of others in the bustle of starting a new job and so on. right now I it isn't as common as Mars, but you're saying that it should be like, what don't you think is the biggest blocker for schools to embracing that as to make it as common as as time outs. Yeah. Well, obviously in the last couple of years, the notion of software and even the concept of being able to design and build that, as I guess, spread out through all sorts of different ways, not least the good old AI. So it's it's it's not what it was maybe a couple of years ago. But what we have now is, is an opportunity. And I suppose for us, you say to yourself, right, we all got different learning styles and some people are and some things and some people and other things computer science would have typically, I think being seen as something for the quote unquote geeks or and but over time and as an industry grows in a and a locality and an ecosystem forms, conceptions and misconceptions sort of, get, get shattered. And so it's a lot more easy now to build software, because of AI. And we're having conversations every day. And even since October, by perception and the industry's perception and those and, and software and I have shifted massively as we've seen the rapid acceleration of so far in technology. So, so the industry is grappling with it, which is, which is great. can schools start to get in on that as well. If you're saying that, that it's, it's more that it's easier than ever to, to, to spend something up maybe there's still a lot of things to consider on cybersecurity and data management and all that, but to spend something up is a lot easier. I yeah, I can software and I help schools catch that vision. You know so the bit I, I like there was the the sort of the context in schools itself, there's let's say there's about 190 post-primary schools and, and I, it's quite a small number, but there's obviously thousands of kids going through there. We have got a strong education system, which is just in the midst of a review. Again, two things can be true at once. Something could be very good. But there's room for growth, potential improvement and so on. Just like the industry, only 1 in 4 of our post-primary schools has a sort of dedicated software teacher. Okay. And that's a blocker. Your reference blockers are there. So it's it's becoming more and more easy to, to build, certainly proof of concept and certainly, in time, the directory looks like from start to finish, software projects could be done for a lot of people, at a sort of a lower local level. The question mark will be over the maintainability of software and that sort of notion of production grade and whether it can be serviced. And there's a lot of people would suggest that that's going to be unlikely starting in the near term, but not but not impossible. So when you, when you ask, okay. How do you encourage kids on the basis that only 1 in 4 schools has the sort of dedicated software teacher and therefore less, I guess, less kids are going to be studying, and three quarters of the schools that don't, like software related to, courses and so on, the best way you can do it is to help kids to understand and start to build. And that's really where software and AI comes into its own. There's a number of great organizations that have been doing things for a number of years, and schools, software companies themselves, have been going out, and trying to inspire the next generation. But for us, it's all for. And I what we're trying to do is we're looking at system change. We're trying to make, the great example in one school, the norm across all, say, 190. And that's before you even get to to talk to, primary schools as well. So, and the most recent review, a lot of my work, by the way, is centered on policy change. So it's not necessarily the most attractive, but that's how we're approaching this. If you can shift and optimize policies, the workings of that are that things are more aligned and then you help to accelerate the industry. So, this is just one part of that. And, you know, that's better than anyone read the sort of skills landscape. And, and you probably dine out on this type of stuff, maybe one or the dollars. That's something we do share a passion for. But but, you know, for us it's really about saying what, what might a curriculum entail? What space could you get on the curriculum on a weekly basis to allow kids to experiment? There's a great example in Belfast, some ArcGIS digital hub. It's kind of been at the forefront of this notion of of trying to encourage kids to develop and grow and build, and then other schools go to that hope. I think there's maybe up to ten and sort of north Belfast area. And then what's happened is that other schools have seen that. So that's your kind of your, your frontier, organization in the same way we've got Bill, there's an AI symbolic. There's something like these are that in the school world. So, what we're trying to do at that system level, I say, well, how do you create a hub, for all schools to be able to go to or how can you potentially match every school to a software company? There's 990. We've got far more than 190 software companies. Yes, they're different sizes. But immediately, if you were to then create, that much, you're able to create space on the curriculum on a weekly basis, even if that's an hour, an hour R2, teams from these companies could go in and start showing and encouraging kids to build. And remember, two, three years ago, we didn't have the tools as as easily available, but now we can come in and use various, tools. You're lovable. And, and and all sorts of others to be able to say, right, here's how you can create an idea, something kind of I don't nothing. Yeah. So that's the spirit of it. And then what we're doing so for is looking right across the continuum. So you've got in the schools, you've got the skill system itself. So that's outside of school. But further higher education right the way through mid-career than when you've started and build a company, a big thing is around increasing your sales and being able to scale up. But then, of course, there's a bigger picture around the already successful industry. How do you ensure that we start that wave for the waves of change going forward? So there's an awful lot of moving parts, but the seeds of this are about inspiring kids. It's always going to come back to that notion of how do you create the framework? Within that, then the magic sort of happens. Yeah, yeah. And so you talk about that at all levels that you're talking about trying to get the policy right and the structure right around curriculum and careers and things like that. But then you're talking about real practical examples. you mentioned the small keys, digital health that's been going for a couple of years now. Are there any other ways that software and AI is engaging with schools to, to try and support those teachers that, yeah, maybe don't feel confident and hear the word software and have all these misconceptions. Yeah. Tell us a bit about that. So one thing we've done is we've set up Industry insights days. So we've got teachers, come in and learn what it's actually like to to work in the industry. They get equipped with some of the tools that are used that can be used in terms of lessons. And again, one of the things we would see from a lot of employers, they don't necessarily want kids coming through with the highest levels of technical ability software. And the industry is a I guess it's somewhat misconceived. Back to what I said earlier, it's not all coding, even for the, you know, the most hardcore of, of of coders and those sort of a plus engineers. A lot of it is that diagnosing of the, of the problem and using process it to unearth a way forward designs a huge part project management. You know, once you then build something, you gotta test, debug, maintain a huge software development sort of life cycle. That's all going on. Many different people of different skill sets are within the industry or what's known as a software industry. So, what we've what we've done is very practical things where we're constantly bringing teachers and we've also set up, as or mentor scheme, pilot year, where we matched around about 50 teachers with 50 people from industry. Again. So that they can ask questions. That's really good. But you still have those three quarters of schools without those dedicated teachers. So, that's all really, we want to help the teachers out of there. But if we can't secure new teachers in those schools, which it's unlikely we will just given the constraints in the education system and so on, the best way to approach it is will industry steps forward. And I think industry sees that as an investment. It's good good for kids to build acquire the traits and the skills and that knowledge. But also to know that regardless of anything you use, a kid know, as you could years ago, but it's easier. You can you can go home after school. Log on. If you're fortunate enough that, you know, have a computer and a connection and start building, that's what we want to encourage on masse. The more people that do that have the confidence to do that, that then will transmit, right the way through, I guess your own personal experience and then through the industry, that's our thesis anyway. Brilliant, brilliant. Well, I can see how that could work really well. And you mentioned about government and legislation and changes. If there was one lever that you could pull that would have the biggest impact on achieving all of that, what do you what would it be? I don't think there is one. I think there's a there's a number across the continuum. And that's the reason we set up ourselves the way we are with software and I, we have a mission to accelerate the industry, and we want to try and double it inside a decade. But too many parts will impact the industry. So for us, if there was one lever, think we're we're actually pretty close. We have action plans that, you know, with the priority sectors of what software your government actually funds. Yeah, your government has, has taken and said this is successful, but we want to make it better. There's huge investments around, you know, the ICC through our main institutions, universities. There's probably a constriction or a blockage, I would say in the skill system. So schools I've outlined, there's a big constriction there around funding and that university conundrum on the Mars and cap, the number of students that are allowed to sort of study here and how that's paid for. If you're going to increase the number of people who are interested in schools, you've got to widen the pipeline through the university. And and that could be through the standard university or of course, through, apprenticeships, on academies. So I would say if you had to put me on the spot, massively increase the number of learning opportunities beyond school for people, be that university, be that apprenticeships or academies for those people that don't actually need to go through, a standard model. And the reason I actually say that is because every year, well, for a number of years, you could say that almost all knowledge, human knowledge has been available online for free. If you've got that access to internet, you can pretty much learn anything. Your ability to do that now is getting easier and easier and easier. People are talking about how, you know, teachers are being assisted. Various countries around the world are, you know, giving, say, ChatGPT or another system to their whole, their whole, I guess, education system. Estonia is one example. I think it rules out from September this year, everyone's got a subscription, a premium subscription now, so you can pretty much do anything, if you don't understand something, the first way you can have it explained is five, ten, 15 different ways until you get it. You know, that notion of learning to learn is is key. So the reason I say that is because, more and more examples have, has been on Earth by people in the industry who didn't necessarily go the standard. Right? Yeah. They learned the code from age 11 or 12. And I think you got to recognize that all of these different channels are important. And we think of the hose analogy, the wire to the hose. And the more water flowing through in each of those channels, the more likely you're going to get people who are equipped to be able to build and that the industry to help them. So do you think employers are open to those alternative pathways, or are they still hooked on the the graduate market? Yeah, I think I think they are. But there's again, a bit of nuance. So if, if, if you're great and you didn't go through uni, the challenge becomes, connecting to an employer and being able to sell yourself becomes a different challenge. Whereas if you are great but you don't necessarily have technical ability or you're not ready to go into company, your challenges and it took to learn something and then be able to package that. So we would see a number of the large employers here who's of course benefited from the wonderful pipelines through our unis. Right. They've been really successful. It's really hard for you need to keep up curriculum wise that that's a challenge. And we're ongoing conversations around that. One of the benefits of not going through a curriculum, is that you can build and learn on the job, and that's one thing, I hear employers say a lot, for example, an apprentice really benefits because they go in from day one and they start to learn. I'm build projects. And the sweet spot is, is learning enough theory and obviously putting it into practice. And that's why even university students on year three are encouraged, if possible, to go out on placement. Because you come back after your third year, you're, you're a different person. So I would say that employers are becoming more and more open to it, but it may come to a point where we got to help more students. I can build earlier, do projects on them and sell those projects, be able to come in there. I guess like this. Unpack what what the challenge was. What what they've done, where they run into problems, how they got through that. I think if you can do that, whether you have a degree or not, and you've got a base level of technical ability, enthusiasm, the motivation again, lesson learned to learn. Those traits are pretty much going to get you to the point where employer says yes, okay. There's obviously anomalies everywhere. Yeah. And and also attack. Those aren't technical traits either. Those are things that you can develop in lots of different ways. Exactly. Yeah. Clearly a technical ability is is key. But again, that's that's kind of arguably that's getting How do I put it. You're getting more assistance now from the tools that are available to be, not to be less technical per se, but to be able to enter an organization and get help. Yeah. And smooth out some way that the learning curve might be less, sort of steep because you've got AI tools. Yeah. Yeah. No, again, there's nuance and everything. What you don't want is people coming in and just only being able to use AI, knowing what's under the hood and on the bonnet, they, as you said, go to full production. It's still it's it's different. But as if you look at the trajectory, curve suggests that it's going to get easier and easier. was reading last week two reports that were there were they were they were talking about since the advent of of widespread use of ChatGPT. And I say 18 months to 24 months ago, there's been a decline in the number of entry level opportunities. Yeah, this is across the whole economy. It's not just in software. Do you have any any reflections on on that. Yeah. Well I think there's there's two things going on. In the world, there's huge uncertainty. There's an awful lot of sort of factors at play here. Political uncertainty. And I mean, it's been pretty severe when you think about what we've gone through, even, let's say, the last five years, you pandemic conflict, ups and downs in the economy. And then, I think every time there's a US election, there is a bit of a hold and a pull back in general, but this has been more acute. Then when you factor in AI on that, where companies are, experiencing on one side, perhaps contracts that aren't then given or investments aren't made because people are holding or there's a redeployment of cash elsewhere. That is huge ripple effects depending on whether you're buying or selling. And I think those things combined probably with a lot more, has meant that, graduates and certain other roles are the first to, to to suffer because people look to see what they can make with what they have. And then also in this case, potentially look to AI and go, right, where might the efficiencies or opportunities be? Now our theory at this time and it's evolving is that long term the industry, you know, as a as a bright future. But there's turbulence here. There's a period of of those companies understanding the sector and the speed of, of AI and those tools. This is the year, so-called year of sort of agenda. And if you're able to, automate, let's say, tasks for an extended period of time without human intervention, that looks to be a real sort of golden nugget, whereby you can you can have agents potentially do, the roles of, of, of others on those others, at least in conversation, appear to be seen as junior roles, which tend to then be, of course, graduate roles. So that's where I think there's a pullback, perhaps a shedding. But it, it may be that we need to just look at how that flows through in the next couple of years. That's our theory. That may be ignorant naive. I don't I don't know if anyone knows, but people and other roles are gonna unfold and they are unfolding already. So again, if you go back to those essential traits, you know, learning to learn, understanding where this is going, even if you're a computer science student, or a software development student, nine year, one year to you still massively ahead, of much of the population, far more software is being built, far more software is going to be built now, than than would have been a number of years ago. So you're a massive advantage there if you can then combine your, let's call it junior level skills, but potentially, and accelerate that with the AI tools. You're, you're way ahead of the, the sort of the average Joe, as it were, in the population. And that we would see that as a huge advantage, huge, huge advantage still of going to study, software, taking on a software apprenticeship or academies and so on. Yeah, yeah. A some reflections. There's a lot, a lot there. Yeah. But you talked earlier about the importance of having the structures. Right. And, and your background as policy to get a sense that, that our, and our government here has, has an AI policy or strategy that, that they know that they know how to handle this. And I don't know, there's a lot of private companies that are shaping it as a society. Do you get a sense that our government is leading us well in this, in this space? I think I got to take a step back again because I view all this stuff in context. So, when you look at the frontier of AI, it's, it's not here. And, and I but again, that doesn't mean it's a bad thing. Right. So you've got your big sort of US companies, China potentially some and in large and in Europe and then the UK overall, let's say has a really strong way of an emerging, sort of network of, of labs. We've got phenomenal universities and cutting edge companies have been doing things for years. So, from a from a UK government perspective, I would be really encouraged by what the government's done. It's put a lot of eggs and folk in a basket there around technology. AI being at the center of that with its then it priority sectors, that have just been released, alongside the industrial strategy. And then there's a trade strategy as well. So, cash really and the ability to spend and invest is with the UK government here. And, and I, we have those constraints. We have constraints that don't allow us to do the basics around water and sewage infrastructure, and various other things. So then when it comes to AI and I investment, there have been really good nuggets I've mentioned. I think universities have been able to get large investments of grants. I know there's a conversation on I want at the moment around compute. But we're constrained when it comes to say, all right, electricity grid, data centers have been seen as something that could potentially be valuable. They are to a certain extent, they're hungry on the, on the PA network. And they can create maybe a cost or effect around them. There's some jobs to be had there, but when it when it looks to AI and a policy where we would look at the minute is to the executive of us, and we have the chief scientific, a technology adviser, Helen McCarthy, she's done a phenomenal job, I think, of, I guess exposing the the need to focus on data and government and get those basics right across the silos. She's pushing hard on, has got a lot of, progress and buy in from what it seems on the outside. Anyway, around the need to get your structures right. And there will be some investment. The office of AI and Digital Land was agreed by the executive. That was something we had a push for. We think there's got to be at least some figurehead, within government to drive. It's it's quite focused on public sector and the huge gains we had there. There perhaps is an area to develop the, the, the private sector strategy and at the time of recording here, I do believe there's a push. Then once a person is appointed to run the office of AI and and digital, you should see a sort of a flow through. But that all said, industry doesn't necessarily need or should wait for government. I think it's it's important to work together. And our companies here, we were encouraging to get a big piece of the pie around UK government, contract opportunities to develop themselves and put their services out there, because at the global level, we've got some phenomenal companies here doing incredible work. It's important to try and decrypt AI into your existing product line and then try it out, hopefully help people spin out of our universities on AI for companies. And I suppose that's a bit of sadness on, despite or or in spite of government policy. You might suggest that it it's a little slow. It's difficult to keep up with. But we again come back to that building, encouraging people to build AI first. Companies know it's something that you can do, regardless of policy. Yeah. You know, you mentioned earlier about one of the aspects of self or an AI is sales. And so this is helping to sort of overcome those myths that yeah, to be in so far sector you need to be some is really technical that and just like writing lines of code. So why is there being like a particular issue you mentioned there about selling ourselves to the world. So, know, for those who are less than thinking, actually, I, you know, I quite like I like convincing people of value, like persuading people like, yeah, you know, is there a need for more people to, to be selling software. Yeah, yeah, yeah there is. So there's some like there's some phenomenal companies here who have started and, and AI and are selling globally right there. I'll probably leave some light here, but let's say, two of our members, sovereign and first derivatives and then options technology, for example. So, I've heard a number of anecdotes where if you start a company here and you've got someone from and I am who knows the players, the company is passionate about home and you sell around the world, the likelihood is that you're going to find it easier or have a better chance because it's a new, you know, it's something that you can't really put up, put a price on. Our RV would be that we've done a phenomenal job at building up our software engineering capacity, but we've a really good opportunity to build up our sales and the sales professional capacity. And it's overlooked. It's not discussed. And we've come across this notion partly from feedback from members. If you go to the US or perhaps other places, sales are seen as a phenomenal career. It's well, it's prestigious. The Americans are really good at it. We think there's an opportunity here. It's not that we're not good at it, you know, again, two things to at once. We're doing well, but we could really accelerate our products, on our service companies further around the world. Obviously, working with the likes of Invest and I, Department of Business and Trade and so on. So our focus is to say, okay, you need to help the company sell more. And that's things like trade missions and certain incentives within the system. But actually what you need to do is help more people again, come on through school, maybe have gone through even a technical degree who think, okay, I've got a base level understanding, a solid technical understanding, but I actually might be better selling this now and having both of those parts as a real when when it comes to being client side and client facing. So that's what we're starting with. I'm meeting actually just this week around, a sales academy. Could you start us off our sales academy and then encourage the next, next generation, not only to get into the software industry, but to actually say, well, here's a role, here's role. And by the way, sales selling is one of those people, as you've mentioned there, Richard, are pretty good at it naturally. So why not harness that. And again, you've got the distinct advantage if you go from here right, to somewhere else in the world, you know, people. Yeah, people should, should love you. Anyway. You're from the island of Ireland after also. Yeah. It's I think what you've described there. But yes, it's it's seen as a prestigious career and, and why would not be something that we would aspire to have our young people interested in, you know, showing people who don't see the value in something to show them this, that there's value in this, that there's something that they can benefit from. Yeah. Whenever we're all being sold to that's the message that we are being given that. Yeah. There's something that you're struggling with your challenge with. Here's something that can solve that problem for you. Yeah. It could be this accelerant or this benefit for you. Exactly. And that's that intuition. Not everyone has. You can you can learn it. But but also selling is inherently like a human thing. And it's face to face and it's building connections. So I definitely think after all the talk of, of AI, this human connection and the ability to sell and build relationships, it's gonna become even more precious of in my own view at this time. I know you can always get the upsell, but it's rare that you would get at least stage 2 to 2 companies. Or you would you know, do business with AI, at least some sort of human in the loop. And I think you hear so many anecdotes over the years of the data was done here. It was something innocuous. We went and did acts or did y and at the end of, you know, said activity, we said, oh, well, we do business together. And it was based on the relationship, perhaps not even, the level of technology. And there was an inherent level of trust there. And I think that's the thing that people perhaps are even nervous about around all things AI and development. There's a ability to gain a sense of trust when you look someone in the eye. Yeah. An unformed. Not so. So, yeah, I think that a really good opportunity for our people here to see that it's not all technology. The human connection is, is really still there. And again, could become more and more precious. So so see your about imagine you're chatting with a friend whose son or daughter are 16 or 17, thinking about leaving school, and they say Neil, why would they join the software sector? What what's your overture? Your answer over a coffee or what they bring to them? They. What would you say to what I probably start by looking at their sort of fundamentals. I always start with what do you naturally drawn to or have you been drawn to in your life? What do you know? And if something was on earth there, I could draw the connection pretty quickly to the industry and say, well, if you're into that, turns out this is a big need and an industry. So, so rather than inverting it the other way, I think there's there's just so many opportunities, whether they want to be based here, you want to travel, you want to design, sell, project, manage, use an awful lot of rules. And so far as we talked about earlier, is only becoming more prevalent. So I don't think it's a hard sell at all. There's a there's a need for people in the industry. I probably would also say after establishing what people are drawn to or interested in and it's okay, obviously to not know, but they might have some inherent traits that you can spot through a conversation, a coffee. I think I think in any industry, in any role, you have to be able to, kind of set out who you are and ideally as soon as possible, know who and what, what you are. And it will strengthen. And no one, even your limitations are what you like and don't like. I think going through the system myself, I probably had a bit of a of a fear of revealing who really was to an employer because you sort of get intimidated by the professional landscape, and you want to just be a person that says, whatever the problem of the challenge, I can solve it now, as it happens, that's a good, a good, a good attitude to have as well. And that's what employer generally would like. But I think, there's one thing doing a job for the cash and one thing signing your sort of calling and life. And again, it comes back to listen to your gut, your intuition. So I would say the opportunities are there in the industry. It's it's about knowing who you are as a, as a kid. And then once you, you know, there's endless number of routes to be able to get in to that. Yeah. And and that's something we got to improve. And that's something I guys I know you're working on. Yeah yeah yeah. Let's let, let's, let's go there next to talk about these different routes. So we're, we're working together on a project which is funded by the Department for the economy called software for all, which is a phrase that you came up with. So so thank you for your creative input and leading on this. So those routes and to this, the software for our project that we're running is, is about apprenticeships, is about creating that market. And more than snap market where we have more employers hiring more apprentices and encouraging more females to become apprentices and so forth. Cyber and fintech. So yeah, what excites you most about the potential of this project? So, well, I should say we're so for a for all came from it actually actually the interviews the role is I created a campaign an idea which was which was so far for all. And it was because I had this notion that the software industry here was great, but that there was a perception of misunderstanding from the outside. So this notion that actually it's for everyone and, and I it's one of our flagship industries. And, you know, it's the golden thread of your cyber fintech regtech that, that software, and it's wider sense. So in other countries where they have a sort of a national industry, it becomes a source of pride, and it's for everyone to be proud of and have a, have a piece of. So that's where the notion of software for all came from was also inherently where the I think 1 in 5, employees in the industry is, is what is female. And and so that's clearly low. And we have that problem still across other sectors and other elements of our society. But within the industry or a phenomenal woman there, within that 1 or 5. So, I think for us, as we've developed this concept, and we go back to the sort of phases of accelerating industry, where are the blocks? Well, one of the blocks is that we can't get enough people into the industry. And from a woman's perspective, childcare has been a huge thing. I worked on previous roles. You look at the blocks, and if an industry is misunderstood and is potentially inaccessible, to a cohort of the population, well, then you got to send to your attention on it. So for us, really, our target is. Well, it's in the next 18 months, get 40 additional software apprentices who are woman amongst your wider companies, and then tell the stories and highlight those of the women that are that are there. There's been great initiatives over the years doing this. It's not like this is just, a wow idea, but we are the first to specifically get, funding and focus our attention on that creation of the roles. That's one thing, making people aware, but then making it even easier to get in through a dedicated pathway, that's the bit that's really exciting. And I suspect that will change the game. And once those 40 come in, you've got that 40, ambassadors who will help the next 40 or 80 or whatever it may be. So yeah, that's great. That's great. It's great to hear you summarize it like that as well. And we are excited about this. We've, we've seen apprenticeships really break down barriers, even from a, a stage of life point of view. We've that we've had men, men and women in their 30s and 40s who have become apprentices because if if an employer had only said you need to have a bachelor's our master's degree to be considered, and yeah, they would have to have dropped out of their job, they would have thought, you know, maybe it's a family and had to go to university full time or part time over a 3 to 6 year period with the hope of then getting a job. Yeah. Whereas with an apprenticeship, because the employer changed their mindset, the employer said, no, actually, come as you are. Yeah, come with all your life experience that you've gained as a 35 year old mum of two or a 42 year old dad or whatever. And, bring that in with your ambition and we will develop you in a parallel that sort of four days and work on that college or uni approach. And so and again, that's, that's helpful to unlock the barrier around helping women to participate in it as well. But it's but it's also just a great way of people who don't have the qualifications yet to do that. So a lot of levels. Yeah, we're really excited about this project. Exactly. You know, and that's it's it's going back to that, you know, imagine a time where I think the terms used as like lifelong learning, I'm not necessarily a fan of that term because I don't necessarily think people know what it means. Unless you really think about it. Maybe. But imagine you just are at any point in your life, young or old, and you just know what to do or where to go if you want to do something like it's it's helped this technology and the internet has has accelerated that and that ability to get knowledge for free at that sort of tip of your, your fingers. But and, and I for such a sort of small, compact place that those sort of punchable bits where, our systems are the line and people don't necessarily know where to go and when. So you gotta have a way in which you are 30 or 40 or whatever it is, and you can quite literally go, well, I'm going to, probably keep my family structure. I'm going to probably keep an income because that's what I need. The basics of the Maslow's hierarchy of needs. But I can still go and study in a way that suits me. So for some, it will be the part time, degree or master's. For some, it may be the ability to go back and actually say, okay, well, I can leave my job and now I can do apprenticeship because I get that income secure. I get it sounds so simple and it actually is. You know, when you think about the reasons this stuff doesn't happen, it's possibly to do with funding or just a legacy sort of mish mash of all things over a number of years, but so that it's not complicated to build, to acquire skills. And the factors when you acquire skills really are time, cost and quality. It just so happens we call it an apprenticeship for a degree, you know, but it's actually that's what it is, you know, so for those so so the reason we have apprenticeships is because we've got employers that have caught the vision around apprenticeships. Yeah. But yet in our economy as a whole, there are less than 10% of employers that are currently hiring apprentices. Yeah. But but four times that say that they would like to. So there seems to be this gap between what's actually happening now, what the future could look like from a, from a software perspective, what do you think are some of the barriers that employers have to not maybe engaging around apprenticeships? there'll be a range. The data that we've looked at would suggest that partly it's the awareness and understanding that it exists. Partly it will be to do with, like the, the costs. Right. And knowing what it actually plays out on this because I axiom we're writing a letter to a government minister at the minute, and I put a comment in the draft, to myself, but to everyone reading it saying, what's the average, placement salary now? And I would know where to find the apprenticeship ways, but I wouldn't necessarily know on the top of my head at, say, 15 or 20 or 25 K cost to the employer or whatever it may be. And I dare say, if you and I, right across the economy, never mind to software companies, a lot of people wouldn't necessarily know. You'll know the concept of the apprenticeship broadly, I'd say, because that's been sort of the the guild and the thing for years. But but those types of apprenticeships have far moved on. And I think in an industry like software, there's probably a high enough understanding of the fact that you can do yourself or apprenticeship now, but the nuts and bolts of that wouldn't be widely understood. So I think those are two factors then the system and accessibility itself. And that's the reason I say workplaces started because you spotted, a gap and, knowing where to go, I always use the example of like one one. It, I know had the yellow pages, but for me, there was a period of time when 118118 just stood out as if you needed a number, like, you know, so the 1.8 for apprenticeships or in Newcastle for example. And as you draw that parallel around, when everybody in school broadly knows if you're going to that level in your plan to uni, it's Ucas, it's just so well known. So you got to have ideally one place, one platform or a way in that's easy, minimal friction. In addition to those other awareness raising tools. Then I think from an employer's perspective you're you got to take a punt. Now I think of apprenticeships as sometimes it's not always because I've got an example where someone says on day one apprenticeships had value. So let's say there curve, or if return investment is important, it's like that. And I was surprised this person said the reason that they, they add value is because they ask questions, that we wouldn't have thought of. So they triggers into thinking about things in a new, fresh way I thought was so, so good. Other employers will say, well, no, it might be more like this. But then when it starts to hit, you know, it accelerates. Not apprentices. Fantastic. So an anecdote that I hear a lot from different employers who don't necessarily know each other in the same rooms, is that they'll say that after 18 months, The Apprentice will be, quote unquote, as good as or equal to, or if not better than the the person that's gone through a degree without a placement. So a three year degree in theory, 18 months, you know, of an apprentice. Now in those 18 months, she got a a payment, you got to train, you got to do things. But the data suggests that you get back something far surpassed. Otherwise you've you've taken a chance on someone and they have invariably again asked those questions. Those beautiful questions that we all have through naivety, ignorance and not knowing and understanding things. That's all in that benefit that you don't probably get in there. Return an investment. Worker surveys or monitory type, qualitative, pieces of what you're saying you'd often think of like, return of investment being, oh, they ship tax code or they did this project which we then made a yeah, a profit from. But yeah, yeah. The point is that they just for a good Lester and asked a great question. There's a lot that goes into preparing someone to be in the right frame of mind to ask that question, but that's, that's incredible that to hear that that's yeah, that's the case. Even me coming into the industry, I had a distinct benefit coming into this job in October because I wasn't necessarily coming straight from a software company. So I was able to look at things in a way that I think, and other people told me added value because I was questioning the normal way of looking at it. I've got three board members, new board members who are joining and August here and so far, and I and I know they're going to ask questions that will hopefully be challenging and uncomfortable because they'll just have a completely different way of looking at it other than US incumbents. And it's the same for an apprentice. If you have an apprentice versus someone that's even been in the industry for years, you're going to get distinct advantages. So yeah, that's what's beautiful about grit. Grit, yeah. When things even like jump back to saving your own career journey, you were in policy role, the Federation of Small Business, isn't that right? Yeah. Yeah, it does look back on your career and think, what? How did I get here? Or, you know, was there a plan around that's like, as a someone who was thinking of leaving school, I'd love to do these things or. Yeah, part of it all work out for you. So in the so in school, I was I was pretty I did pretty well up to GCSE. But then if I'm honest, I started, I had some friends who were great people, but they were involved in some stuff you probably wouldn't want to be. So I had a set of friends who would have been sort of booksmart and, you know, did very well on all metrics and then had friends sort of outside of school. Partly. And who. Yeah. You know, I kind of I was starting to get right, left and right. So I actually got suspended in school and at fifth year for thing, wrong place, wrong time. And at that stage, I was really into languages, Spanish and business and so on, very, very good at Spanish. A-Star. And that was because I had a teacher who was wonderful. He unfortunately left. He wasn't well. And then when he left, I kind of I was I kind of lost draw on school. I wanted to leave and go into work. But, thanks to my dad, I'm a mom. They were they were pretty supportive of me going through the level, and I'm trying to get to uni, because they. I don't think they had gone to, Or they had it was more of a sort of a college type, rather than, than uni. So I find my way in. But I was Mr. sort of business and commercial and got a degree with a placement year, not third year. That's when I really thought, right, I'm kind of going to go into business. They kept me all through my final year. But in that time, I actually, this is completely unrelated to work, but but very related. When you look back and draw the pieces. I tore my ACL, my left knee. I was big in the sport and that was a big part of my life for my identity. I was really bad injury for me at that time, really hard to get over and to be honest, that's a probably I joke about this, but it's probably true. I had my kind of midlife crisis at at age 19 or 20, as it were, and that was when I took a sort of a very windy, sort of a very windy journey, which has always had threads around, I think, trying to make a difference and helping, you know, I went into like a human rights based charitable company working with young people in care and the justice system, using a sort of a commercial mindset to build relationships, ironically, with employers, change policy and get young people into jobs who then make health trusts and through the likes of social contracts or social causes and government contracts, that sort of thing. I was always really passionate about technology, though, since my placement year, because I was basically technology transformation and consulting. So I took that position, and I was also really passionate about photography as well. From around that time when I did my knee, I was given a camera. So just one thing and one thing, and that's the lesson of life that you can realize. But at the time you don't know. So it all makes sense when you look back. Then left a role on work full time trying to make as a photographer for close to two years. Traveled the world, and then came back and I got the old tap on the shoulder. It was like, what do you do with your life now? In some ways, I had a great sort of quote unquote career there, but I never saw. I never saw as a career. I saw as life as one. I've always been really personally invested and, whatever I'm doing, you know, it's never just been to pay the bills. That's not really. I don't think that's in me at all. Kind of all. And, so got a job in the FSB. And the reason I was able to get that job in policy was because I'd gone on that board, through a brilliant program called, the Boardroom Apprentice, which I think a lot of people have been on. I went through, like the first test cohort, with Eileen Mullen, who's absolute legend, has done phenomenal work to get, people on the boards here and I and in England as well. So I went on the board, each and I, and they had retail stores and the sort of social enterprise and they sold insurance products and so on. I became chair of the board. So I got a real insight. And, pnl what running stores looks like. And then the FSB obviously represents small businesses. I'd also been self-employed. So these weird mishmash of experiences that you could never have designed came together. And then I was able to, I guess, empathize with the small business owner. But through my previous role in the human rights sort of campaigning side, I got to know how to work with politicians, how to understand legislation and look at those blocks and go, right, here's where we need to focus our attention to smooth the system before you know it, you know your six years there through Brexit, through Covid, working on every issue that impact a small business, meeting with officials here, England, EU people, you name it, really, really interesting. And you, you go back to the conversation with the 16 year old you, you don't set out to get those experiences, but you become more able to, understand how to navigate a situation that are new, they're fresh. You know, you have a template and a framework, mental models that you deploy to be able to make sense and then build build from there. So, then when the opportunity so for and I came up that passion for technology just obsession actually I had some relatives that lived in Silicon Valley and worked there for years, so I've always had it in me. It was just to get opportunity not to try and go for. So yeah, well, that's, that's as a, as a, as a micro business. So for a competitive member of software and I'm very grateful that you're in that role. Nine and the work you're doing, as we wrap up today, it's got a very simple question. What's so good about work? Oh, well, I think what I've just unpacked their work. Right. When you think sort of philosophically about work. Right. It's it's in some ways it is ultimately to pay the bills. Otherwise if there was no payment, we had everything you would be probably doing activity, but it would be an essence of volunteering. Right. So let's just say that the work is a fundamental of life, but what it gives you is this, like, look where we are, and I, I wouldn't have met you if it wasn't for equal work. Even though we might have, you know, there's connections with people outside of work. It brings people of all different, shapes, sizes, skills, interests together. And their place. There's very few things do that. Perhaps football teams are interests. People go to church and and faith. There's various settings, but humans are inherently, you know, want to be connected, even if you like your alone time. So for me, I've always loved what work gives you that, that higher purpose, on it. And not only that, you do have the distinct advantage of being able to get money and pay your bills, which then leads to more things, experiences, etc., etc.. So yeah, so I don't know, I think, the future of works questions, you know, whether we'll be working in ten, 15, 20 years, whether we're working but not not for cash because we will have reached AGI and so on, that is feasible. But I think for me, I've, I've had really, really good experiences looking back on and being in situations that I just would never have got into. I yeah, I guess not not not out of job. And I should say, not everyone has the good fortune to have a job. Oh, maybe once one. But it doesn't mean that your life obviously means something. You can still get a lot out. Once you say retire, you still deploy the things you've learned through work. It's not all about work, and you shouldn't be judged on what job you do. I'm very distinct about that. But as a vehicle, it's it's hard to be. Yeah, well, it's. But it's great to say that you're at a place where you're working with that industry. Just like government, government, politicians that can create more opportunities for more people who do want to work now to get into jobs that they never thought existed. And they can probably do things with their lives that, yeah, they didn't think were quite possible. So I'll party for that. I wish you every success as you go for it. What does work mean to you, if I may ask? Thanks for the question. Like I it does give me an immense amount of purpose And I've spoken to a few people who have stepped away from work quite early and in a career. You know, maybe because they didn't have to work because they small business. But yeah, that really struggled with not having an inbox and not having people to come to work with every day. So for me, there's a real it is, there's something very deep within, within work. It's good for us. It's a good rhythm. It's good to live a life where you're being creative. You're trying to come up with new things every day. You're being sacrificial for others that you know you're working with, you know, kind of boring yourself out at times for those people and also to have them build you up, you know, whenever you need that as well. So yeah, there's an immense amount of, of purpose and calling and, and, and work, and I think I'd really miss this if I, if I wasn't doing what I'm, what I'm doing. I don't know what the future holds, but. Yeah, but I'm really enjoying the journey, that we're on and, yeah, there's something about the some of the parts I find when you're in a team, I think, no one really achieves anything in life alone. Truly alone. Perhaps an exception and always got real positive knowing that without those other people in your team, the thing that you've achieved collectively, you couldn't have done as individuals? I think that's something that's amazing. Again, in sports and other settings, when you think about it, how many people achieve things that are like really groundbreaking by working together, each bringing their own piece of the jigsaw? This was pretty special. So yeah, yeah, there's the the, I was here in Belfast today and hello listeners across and I hopefully it's but the, the, the, the motto of of Belfast is pro tanto quid retro palmas. Yes. I also love languages at school. I love I did Latin. Yeah. For two years. You know. Yeah for so and again you think, oh why would people do that? But actually I love the origin of, of language and Latin is, is the base of a lot of our. Yeah. You know, English from French, Spanish etc.. Yeah. But pro tanto quadrature palmas actually comes from the Psalms. Yes. And the Bible. And it's. What shall we give in return for so much. Yeah. And when I think about working and life in general, it is very much for me as a Christian, that I'm out of thankfulness for what, yeah, God has done through Jesus, that I'm a gift which I could never repay. What what can I give? And and I feel every day to, to to do that. But there's a, there's a posture thereof. I've been given such a great gift. Therefore I want to try and to, to bless others and, and to pour myself out for, for other people as well. It's funny you say that because I, I'm not sure if we've talked about this before, but there's two things come to mind. Willy. Jack. He oh, he was the publican yet? Duke of York. Harp bar on his window panes. He has pro tanto quid. Roger. Bombers on. It's the coat of arms, as you've said, for for Belfast. It's the slogan, as it were. And when I'd seen that I'd seen this many years ago. But when I'd seen that, I then thought, wow, that's a really great motto, because even in the strife and of life, there's stresses and strains. But you got to try to be grateful and balance yourself. So. So actually, would you believe on my phone 9 a.m. every day? I'm normally started a bit before that, but it's a good center. I've got Peter Quid, Roger Bowers every morning, so I get that reminder to say, okay, right. If you're busy, remember to send yourself and and be grateful for the fact that, yeah, pressure is a privilege and all that. So yeah, the small world I don't I we talked about that. I'm not sure why I don't think we have this coincidence that I noticed it on Helston, but I'd never I never missed connection before. So, I've really well, I've always enjoyed our conversations because it's something that you've been able to come into. I enjoyed the podcast so much. I wish you every success for all your day and going forward. Terence. Richard. Thanks. Thanks. Thanks for tuning in to work plus. If today's story gave you fresh perspective or helped you rethink what's possible. 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