How To Restart Your Tech Career Using Apprenticeships | Workplus Ep. 13

In this episode of Workplus, Richard Kirk speaks with Esther, a software engineering manager whose journey from Nigeria to Northern Ireland tells a story of grit, growth, and guidance. From working in customer service to leading engineering teams, Esther shares how an access course changed her path, why mentoring matters, and how apprenticeships are transforming opportunities in tech. Whether you're a parent, teacher, or someone rethinking your own career, Esther's story is full of insight and inspiration.

Key Takeaways
• Starting over in a new country builds resilience and confidence
• Customer service roles can be a powerful training ground for soft skills
• Access courses open the door to higher education for non-traditional students
• Software engineering is as much about teamwork as technical skills
• Apprenticeships offer practical, supported entry into tech careers
• Being results-driven helps sustain motivation through challenges
• Passion and purpose go hand in hand in tech careers
• Leadership requires listening, patience, and clarity
• Mentoring is essential for apprentice success
• Companies benefit from keeping both graduate and apprenticeship pathways open

Best Moments
00:00:03. “Apprenticeship is a good way to give young people the opportunity to learn on the job as well as study.”
00:01:32. “I moved to Northern Ireland because I got married, and my husband worked here.”
00:02:15. “The first job I had was as a census collector... it helped me get comfortable with people.”
00:03:45. “I once had more... because that wasn’t what I wanted to do for the rest of my life.”
00:06:12. “It would be great... to have many women and girls going into so-called men-dominated jobs or degrees.”
00:08:04. “I just love the idea of sitting down and writing code and seeing it do something.”
00:10:21. “Even after today, whenever I see that feature... I say to myself, yes, this is my idea.”
00:12:40. “Having a happy team means you’re going to get work done.”
00:15:30. “Software engineering is not just about you sitting there on your laptop every single day.”
00:32:40. “It’s all about the positive aspects you get out of it in the end. It outweighs whatever negatives there are.”

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Transcript

0:00

Apprenticeship is a good way to give young people the opportunity to learn on the job as well as study, because by the time they're true, the apprenticeship you don't need to import them anymore. They have the experiences already. It's a great opportunity. Yes. One thing the employers may say might be, do we have the resources to help these people get to where they need to be? But I think give it a go and see how you get on. There's no one size fits all here. Welcome to Work. Plus the podcast that shines a light on the people doing good work across Northern Ireland. I'm your host, Richard Clarke, finder of work. Plus, I spent years working with employers, schools, colleges and universities, helping young people and career changers to make better informed career decisions. Each week I sit down with real people doing real jobs to explore how they got there, what they've learned and why their work matters. If you're a parent, teacher, carer or just curious about what good work looks like today, you're in the right place. Let's dive in. Esther, it's so great to have you on the podcast today. Thanks for joining us. Q Great to be here. Chris Esther Hard it to come to be in Northern Ireland and you're from Nigeria originally, is that right? Yes, I'm originally from Nigeria and moved to Northern Ireland because I got married and my husband worked here. So yeah, I'm straight over for a living and so and I've been here since then. How long that was back in 2010. Okay, so I've been here for quite some time. And tell us about your by your your career journey. Like, how did that all start? Start like, for you? You know, you mentioned, you know, we were talking earlier that I just about working in Asda and things like that customer service rules like. Yeah yeah I heard it all start like for you. Yes. So after moving from Nigeria to here, obviously I had to kind of like start, start again and the first job that I had was the, you know, census collector role, which I actually did over in England before settling in Northern Ireland. So it was quite interesting because he made me help me to get comfortable with people and knocking at people's door and taps into to other people, which then went straight into, you know, customer service role in Asda down in Downpatrick and yeah, that was also very good because I just love working with customers, I love working with people and going to work to chat to other people is something I enjoy doing anyway. And yeah, and that's, that's how I kind of like started and got pregnant and in between my maternity period, then I decided to, you know, enroll on an access course, which I did, and went back to uni at Queen's as a more trusted NCO and yeah, got my degree and this is me now. Well, how did you find out? How did you find out about the access course? And what was it that sparked you to think I'd like to do something else. Yeah, I think. What can you customers is great. I'm working as a customer service agent in Asda is great, but at the same time I once had more a think because I that wasn't what I wanted to do for the rest of my life and because I'd studied a polytechnic computer science at a polytechnic in Nigeria, I thought, yeah, I'd love to go back to that. And I think German, Métis spirit, I just kind of like came to that conclusion. If I'm going to do something, it's better to do it now. And that was why I, you know, went back to, to uni and the access course was the bona Mitchell said. And I had no A-levels, I only had two so I couldn't go straight in, see any from, you know, my GCSE. So I needed something that is equivalent to A-levels. And the access course was the best way to do it. And I actually got that done. And you know, one of the Sirk Institute, like the Southern Regional Colleges and yeah, I did that for a year, I think, and then off I went to uni. Brilliant. And so did you do full time uni or did you do part time. Yeah, I did full time. You know that's the worry about things like childcare and things like that. But we, we made do and it's just I think it was all about determination. I knew what I wanted to do and knew where I wanted to get to eventually. And inasmuch as it wasn't easy, but I got quite a lot of support because I think a lot of Mitchell students were children can get the support if they're going into full time education, education and when it comes to childcare and all the support. So that really helped because it helped to cover some of the fees for, you know, in order for me to go to uni and get the degree that I needed. So yeah, yeah, lots of it. And so you mentioned the computer science when you were back in your polytechnic in, in Nigeria. Is that something that, that a lot of a lot of girls were choosing in your class or. Well, you know, actually when it comes to software and computer science, you know, back in the days mostly back in the days, the kids, you know, talking about it almost the same thing is now when you think about that back in Nigeria, it was something that girls can go into as well. You know, there was many girls in my class at the time, so it wasn't just a boy, you know, course that only boys said only men did. But women were also quite, quite very much exposed to and have had the opportunity to do such degrees. And yeah, it's not it's not as I wouldn't say it's bad here because of noughties girls. You don't get many girls going into stem STEM courses or degrees and that's not something that is, you know, that I saw in my polytechnic years and it would be great to have the same, you know, the same thing here whereby we have many women and girls going to, you know, so-called men dominated in jobs or degrees. So, yeah. Do you think there are barriers for for young women thinking about computer science or software? Like do they understand what it is? It's not I wouldn't say necessarily. I think going into computer science or social engineering is something you need to have a passion for, because it's one thing saying we want more, more girls involved in social engineering, but if that's not what they really want to do, you know, a probably sign up to to the degree and dropouts eventually and because I saw quite a lot of that during my university is you get you get a class full of you know boys and girls almost and the same ratio. And after some time you see those that probably were doing software engineering or computer science automatically drifting. So things like business information technology. So those less heavy coding courses, I'm not sure what the reason is, but I think it's all it's all about passion and determination to in terms of your ambitions and what you want to do. And that's probably a gap We need to plug in secondary schools and you know, for our education and things like that. Yes. Yeah, yeah. It's a tricky one. I'm for you. You said it was something you wanted to do from a young age. What was it that attracted you to doing that? Oh, it's I just love the idea of, you know, sitting down and writing code and seeing it do something. You know? I like the like that, you know, that was something that motivated me because I want to see results, result. I'm a result driven person. So if I'm doing something, it has to have a purpose. And when it comes to could in itself, so development, when you sit down and you build something from scratch and you know, just an a click of a button, you see your, you know, your hard work, kind of like performing is set in, you know, events holds. That's that was what motivated me really, because I just like to tinker. I like to get into things and break things and see how they work and then fix it again. So software and computers, you know, software engineering, help me do that. And so tell us, like what are some of the things you've been working on then since you've so you did your degree to jump straight to work? Yes, I did my degree in Straight to Work because I set it off, you know, working. Once I said a uni, my unit, my degree pathway included placement year. So I kind of like set it off. Then Tesco me which was then acquired and now I don't. So that's why I've set in my career and you know, on still with the same company and of worked you know we do software development and that's that's what I've been much involved in after my placement went back as a graduate and dive straight into I, you know, into a support role and then you know develop, maintain and building features into our products. And yeah, it's been, it's been a long it's I love it. But at the same time the area when it comes to people management and you know having to make changes on a management level that that was where I wanted to take it, but also within the software industry because I do want to get away from that because it's something that I always loved and something I think I'll go through for quite some time. So yeah, give us an example and of, you know, you talked about you like to put in code and see what comes out the other side or yeah, what are some examples of things that you've created then. Yeah. So in one of the projects I walk or I walked on was because we, we as a software company, we'd produce software that, you know, local governments would use. But here in Northern Ireland and across, you know, I sort of Ireland as well as mainland UK. So some of the stuff so we have a custom of hotel whereby it's, you know, public facing and you know, those I had to build in a feature whereby the customers can be able to kind of like self-serve and do certain things that they usually wouldn't be able to do, you know, from the customer portal. And that even after today, whenever I see that feature and that you know, that aspect of of our products, I kind of like I say some of so yes, this is my ideal space and you know is still is still there, you know, and it's not going to go away, hopefully. And no, it's I think it's sometimes when it comes to software development, it's what motivates a lot of engineers would be building something that is useful and stays there for a very long time. And that was one of the projects I also seen is still been, you know, helping the customers or even, you know, the public be able to apply for products using our software and helping the customer do their own, you know, self-serve and not have to retail to us to do certain things. Yeah that that that was very good one for me. Now you're in a you're an engineering manager in that role. So are you. You've got responsibility for for software engineers and in your team. Yes I did. About, about what that. Well I've recently come into this new role anyway. But prior to that I was the person support lead were also manage a small team of engineers who focused mainly on you know, customer support and on the technical side and yeah so team manager and is something that I've already started work at them. But now as a software engineer manager it's it's it's never easy money to manage in a team but it's it's an interesting role because now I'm you know I'm much more involved in a lot of decision making that I wouldn't have been in the first place, just making sure my team is working, you know, working effectively. They're happy, you know, because I think having a happy team means you're going to get work done. But if if the team isn't happy or motivated to do to do work, you're not going to get much out of them. So I think as a software engineer or manager, those things are important to me. Making sure that my team is happy and must be said. And, you know, in order for us to get results and get our products out there for our customers. And yeah, so yeah, it is challenging. So for our kids, you know, get in, get it in content, in contacts in what can well with stakeholders as well it's is really, really important in making you know making the team work well yeah. Are things there that you've that you've had to learn fresh or even looking back. Yeah. Yeah. And so yeah so tell us about more of I just, you know Yeah, there's so many, so much to learn now as a service. So to a manager because you know it's not I think it's the same for every, every role really once is you never stop learning inasmuch as you might have a lot, you know, as much as I might have a lot of knowledge already as a sort of a, you know, as a pretty spot lead managing it team and all of that. But that's also engineering manager takes it of not obeys sometimes the challenges I think in this is being able to work with other people and actually be patient enough, you know, to listen to others, to listen to their concerns and not having to jump into things quickly. You know, it's it's important to take a step back and see and see things from other people's perspective before decisions can be made and finalized. And that's something I'm learning to do more of as just listen to people more and understand why they are unhappy about certain things, especially, you know, when it comes to products and working with others. Because when it comes to social engineering, it's not just the software engineering team. It encompasses a lot of other stakeholders that are involved. There's a queuing saying, there's a product saying there's a project team. And you know, and when you think about bring all of those people together, that's a lot of people that you have to, you know, do it every single day. And it's important that everybody's on the same page. And that's the you know, that's my current telling. DEADLINE making sure that we're all on the same page and we're all kind of like, you know, singing the same notes. So, yeah, highly. Yeah, that's something. There might be some young people who are thinking, well, software engineering, it sounds like it's going to be me and my laptop. Yeah, by myself. By myself. But it sounds very different from the way you've just described it. There. So if they're thinking, I'm not sure this is for me, because I don't think I could do that by myself or just be in a room by this, what would you say? Oh, no, Software engineering is not just about you're sitting there on your laptop every single day. No, it involves you know, it's a team. I would say the team sports, you know, it can you can relate it to a team sport whereby you'd be working in a team. You know, you'll be talking to your team. You know, you kind of make sure you're building software that, you know, walks along the rest of your team. So it's not just a case of you sitting there and just walking, being alone. If you want to do that, I'm sure your team can make room for you to do that now and again. But it's also involves chatting to other people, making sure you're engaged and aware of what your other team members are working on. And yeah, just being in the loop and it's not it's not a one man band really. So it does involve other people. What are you, an introvert or an extrovert? As always, You know, there's room for you in software development, so please, please give it a go. I think it does that. You also know that. No, absolutely I don't. I think sometimes before people get young, people might get scared because, you know, they think or is just going to be myself on my laptop. No, it's not. And I think what we've tried to introduce within the team in my my company is to encourage people to come to the office and engage with others. Now and again, you know, their social aspects is also there and it just keeps us going. I guess parents aren't that well. We got to know each other. A couple of years ago when I'd started working with work, plus to think about bringing in talent and in a slightly different way. Can you tell us about about the journey that I was going on, you know, to get to the point where they were thinking about new talent pathways? Yes. So in the past, like like I said, I came into this company as came in as a summer intern at first in after my first year of uni, and then Kevin came back as a placements student. So it's something we've always, you know, had it's, we've always been open to news, been bringing new talents in and making sure we provide young people the opportunity to get the experience that they need and just to see what it's like being a software engineer and hopefully it's a concrete decision and then software engineers and those opportunities are always there. And so we made sure that we we keep that roots open. And I think a few years ago after we come in, you know, I first met you really kind of like we started thinking about apprenticeship and how we can get apprentices into our workplace and in order to make sure that we're still providing people with those opportunities. And just as as much as we can. And apprenticeship is one way that we thought we'll be able to, you know, give more to young, young people not just by offering placement positions, but also including apprentice apprenticeship as part of, you know, that that, you know, growth within the team. So and and it's something we've taken on so far and everybody is on board and it seems to be going well so far and now we're taking on more apprentices you know, this year as well. So it's a great opportunity and it also opens the door for young people that do not want to maybe do university degree Monday to Friday. Yeah, you know, it's a big opportunity whereby you get to study and you get to work and you get to earn at the same time. So if there's no reason for you to do apprenticeship, I think earning is one the hall of the last of them. But no, it's a huge opportunity for any young person. And apprenticeship, you know, apprenticeship is, is a good way to go. If you were talking to an employer who's only ever maybe thought a bite taken on graduates that maybe dipped their toe in the order of placements, how does apprenticeships fit into that hope? What would you say to them? A By a did apprenticeships if they were filling? Yeah, I'm not sure whether that's for us. I think we need to think, first of all as employers, how can we help our young people, you know, grow and make them better at what they do? Apprenticeship is a good way to give, feel, give young people that the opportunity to learn on the job as well as study, because by the time they're through the apprenticeship is you know you don't need to import them anymore. They have the experiences already. They're probably already involved in a lot of projects that the company is already, you know, ongoing projects. And it's a great opportunity. Yes. One thing the employers may say might be, do we have the resources to help these people get to where they need to be? But I think give it a go and see how you get on. You know, there's no there's no one size fits all here. Apprenticeship might differ from company to company. Before for us, we found it a good way to get young people in and get them growing and becoming more comfortable with our software over time and as the like, they they become part of the team and get that. And at the moment, one of our apprentices is currently helping other general, you know, like the placement sit ins coming in and other junior people as well to, you know, understand the products a bit more and they're much more they're doing bigger some big projects as well, which is, which is one thing I know some employers might think, oh a prince apprentices but on what are they going to be able to do for us was we bring them in but don't be afraid to challenge them. You know them. Brandon, who we have now, hopefully he's not going to mind me saying his name. He he's, he's been amazing and he's been offering me projects to bring his way. You know, he's ready to just jump in, I think. Give them the opportunity. I don't think they they don't have the knowledge to. They can only learn if you let them. So, so good to hear as a business, is there a better return on your investment from an apprentice compared to graduates? I wouldn't want to compare that way. Okay, So we really want to convey that way because I think whatever choice young people make in order to get to their career, you know, goal eventually is up to them. But as an employer, I know because if we start comparing it that way, we'll probably end up just hiring apprentices and not hire graduates. But we want to make sure graduate graduates have put in the work. They've been full time studies, you know, for three or four years, depending on which pathway they choose. And apprentices. From my own perspective as a company, I think apprentices for us is is valuable because okay, like I said earlier, you're already equipping them with all the tools they need to be part of the company. But when a credit comes in, you know, even though it's after three years or four years of of degree of study and you're going to have to spend time to embody them and get them up to speed whereby an apprentice who is probably two or three years into their, you know, degree pathway have already surpassed, you know, a grade has had their say. So if you put it into those two prospective, you can say maybe apprentice apprenticeship is much more value, but every, every pathway has its own benefits at the same time. Yeah, Yeah. Trying to be a political hand you know it's I was I was I was talking to a very large organization recently and they said that they had stopped their graduate and take because apprentices have been so powerful both for bringing in new people, young people, but also bringing in people who are career changers. You because for someone to get into that organization, if they just if they just had graduate positions, they a person would need to go and get a degree, maybe much like you had to do. Yeah. Esther And then prove themselves that they got that degree to get the job as a graduate. But the company has said they're bringing in 40 or 50 per year. Yeah, they're saying we just want to keep the door as open as possible. And they've had people actually they've a lady who's a a grandmother who's just become an apprentice. So so the other end of the spectrum and if they if they just maybe had that graduate in tech. But anyway it's I know that's unusual for a company to make a complete shift, but I'm always interested to understand the how the company thinks about those. Yeah. No, no, the reason they are thinking, you know, is actually quite valid, you know, But at the same time, we don't want to shut down graduates pathway. You know, we still want to keep it open and give everybody equal opportunity whatever path. Yes, I totally, totally. You mentioned both some of the costs of bringing in an apprentice in terms of onboarding them, etc., and their salary and all that because it's a job. But mentoring can be something which employers would say, Oh, actually we don't have the capacity to mentor an apprentice. But tell us a bit about what your experience has been. Yeah, main trend is one. One thing. I think that is something that will be number one thing to think about first before we even think about costs. Because when you think about the time, it would take another engineer and they'd say no, those similarly mid mid-level engineers who are on board or mentor an apprentice, when you think about all of that, you you wonder in terms of the the corporate goal and objectives, does this actually align with what we're aiming for or how is it going to affect us? So you need to think about the resources. If you don't have the manpower to, you know, mentor and give time to those apprentices, I think you'll be doing them, you know, a disfavor kind of. So you need to make sure you have the people there to mentor, guide them and get them to where they need to be, you know, in their career. And that that should be the first thing ever company should think about. First of all, before we even bring in the idea of the cost of getting The Apprentice into the company is a quite similar to in terms of the responsibility of that mentor to a graduate coming in. Or is it is it is it more onerous? Is it less onerous? Is it about the same? I think I think that's that's why when it comes to graduates, it would and I don't think it would require the same amount of time you give a grant a mentor would give a graduates you know to be given to an apprentice as well because apprentices will be coming in straight out. You know, most of them will be coming straight out of secondary school and they've got no you know, I don't want to say they've got no maturity, you know, because they are much they're going into work. But you know, being in university, I suppose, is due to more of the things than, you know, coming in as an apprentice. So they're going to need more time to get them into that idea of this is you now working and learning. And, you know, sometimes young people can take their time getting off to the idea of being in work. And yeah, that that also takes some time. Well, and the ability for them to grasp things as well not having done some study in in relation to the role can be a bit of a setback but I think would would a great mentoring hand it should be it should be okay to get them up to speed, but it will take more time with an apprentice getting them on, boarded them or getting a mental ID than you would give to graduate because a graduate knows every bit of software principles and and yeah, so they can deal with it much faster defined apprentices are better placed for work and that they're still used to the routine if they've come from school. Yeah, but they're still used to the routine of going to school compared to graduate has come out, has maybe had ten or 12 hours of lectures per week, maybe more of a social life. Yeah. Do you, do you notice any differences and not sense or. Not really, no. From experience, no. I think once someone decides to be an apprentice, they know what it entails. They know this is you know, this is full time, technically full time. Work with it with a day at uni and they know what they're getting themselves into. And they they are very equipped to go straight into those work life and they're, they're happy to do that. And well, most, most of them would be what I say, you know, you know, so most of them would be and but when it comes to a graduate, they might be used to, you know, the freedom of going to lecture. And some of them, if they wish to or not, but they and be more involved socially as well. So work isn't something they would have experience if their degree did not include a placement year or, you know, and unless they've experienced that in their placement year, they wouldn't know what to expect when it comes to work. But if it's a three straight year of straight three year degree, it might kind of like not prepare them enough for the world of work. But, you know, the hope is that every young person who has done a degree would know what to expect afterwards. And yeah, I guess straight into the night. What can it's not easy. It's it's never easy. I'm sure a lot of people would attest to even a lot of our young people who go into apprenticeship or even, you know, degree pathway as a university grad who would would be working anyway, many of them would be would be doing the evening jobs and and things like that prior to the path the pathway they've chosen. So yeah, I think maybe I'm doing them a disservice by saying to my not well equipped, but I think they would be if they've been involved in work prior to finishing school and if we've so, you know, if we've any parents or young people or teachers, I think there so you're you're saying there but those who have done work had some sort of evening job or hospitality working as a census worker. Yeah. Or 17 or whatever. Is that something you're looking for whenever applicants are coming through the subject of our experience, does that make them stand, though? Not necessarily. Not necessarily, because I think not everybody would have had the opportunity to to have done some bit of work before coming in as an apprentice or even even I say, you know, graduates of software engineer, not many of them would have had that opportunity. And we as a company would don't want to just, you know, as good people just because of that. We give everybody opportunity. It's more about the impression you make during interviews and how you come across and what your, you know, aspirations are. It's an obviously backs up with your maybe academic mix and any work experience you've done, which would be a plus. But it's not necessarily you know it doesn't cause a negative them. Yeah if you don't have work experience so because we want to make it you know, we want to give everybody an equal opportunity as much as possible. Okay, great, Great. Esther, just a final question. Just as we as we close up the podcast today. So at workplace, we would leave work as really positive thing and do great things. And we've heard today about your the journey you've been on. But for you, what's so good about work? Work? Yes, I'm so good about who I work. Work for me is is an escape kind of place. You actually know what work is. There's how do I put it? I'm trying to put it in a way that is going to encourage people to go into work, especially young people. Work is, I think, is an important aspect of my life, really, because it means I go into work knowing that I'm making a difference. I go into work knowing that, you know, once when I get there, I get to interact with other people. I work with a great team of engineers who who, you know, I like talking to. And the social aspect of it is great. But at the same time, it's just going into work knowing that you'll you're producing software that is used by so many across the UK and Ireland and it's it just gives me joy to see to see that as you know, part of what I do every day. And yeah, don't get me wrong what can be it can be, you know, work is hard work, let's put it that way. It's never easy. And so nobody would have a delusion about that. But it's all about the positive aspects you get out of it in the end. It it outweighs whatever negatives there are. And yeah, getting up every day to go to work is is great for me. Okay. And my general, this question is I agree. I agree a great way to end. Esther wish you every success in your career all you're doing and thank you so much for taking the time to talk with us today. You know, I appreciate you having me. And yeah, thank you very much. Okay. Thank you. Thanks for tuning in to work. Plus, if today's story gave you fresh perspective or helped you rethink what's possible, leave us a review on your favorite podcast platform or hit like and subscribe. It really does make a big difference. For more stories, resources and tools to help guide the next generation, visit Workplace Start up until next time.